Tag: Pastrix

Answering a Fool, Complementarianism, Mailbag

The Mailbag: Answering a Fool #6

Michelle Lesley

Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26:5

There’s a lot of foolishness masquerading as Christianity these days. Occasionally, I get e-mails and messages showcasing this type of foolishness. It needs to be biblically corrected so these folks can stop “being wise in their own eyes,” repent, and believe and practice the truth of Scripture. From time to time, I share those e-mails in The Mailbag with a biblical corrective, not only so the e-mail writer can be admonished by Scripture, but to provide you with Scriptures and reasoning you can use if you’re ever confronted with this kind of foolishness.

To answer a fool according to his folly (or in the case of most of the foolishness addressed to me – a professing Christian acting the fool by spouting unbiblical folly) is to stand toe to toe with him and firmly and biblically address his unbiblical foolishness without backing down or letting him run roughshod over you – sometimes even mirroring his own words back to him to help him see his hypocrisy.

Some Christians think holding your ground, refusing to compromise on biblical truth, and offering correction in this way is unkind or unloving. It is not. Not if you’re going by the Bible’s definition of love rather than the world’s definition (“be nice” “accept everything” “don’t confront”), and not when you’re dealing with a pridefully stubborn person. One of the most unloving things a Christian can do is to see a professing brother or sister in biblical error and ignore it rather than trying to help that person see the truth of God’s Word. Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, John, Jeremiah, Isaiah, and many others, did this plenty of times in Scripture, and, often, much more stringently than I and other 21st century Christians do. Sometimes love – real, biblical love – has to be tough in order to reach someone’s heart.

You can read more in the “Answering a Fool” series here.

The following comment was left in response to last week’s Mailbag article, The Mailbag: I Have to Preach Because No Man Will Step Up. I’ve posted the comment in its entirety below, then broken down into manageable parts with my responses. Buckle up.😀

As a believer who has witnessed woman step up in communities all over the world, where no man would to share the Gospel, and lead their community towards Christ (even when their life was at risk), I would argue that she ought to continue preaching. It is one thing to flaunt a leadership position as if women are better than men (and the same would be wrong if a man claimed he was better than a woman). Because at the end of the day, the role is for the called, man or woman. If you research on missionaries of the past, hundreds of people have been saved by women. Are you claiming none of those women should have followed the great commission commanded to ALL believers in Matthew 28 and that all those lives they pointed to Christ weren’t worth it? Paul even asks in Romans 10:14-15, how people are to be saved if no one goes to share the Gospel with them.

Arguments like these are the reason we have prideful men in the Church who take roles they’re not called for and we have obedient women trying to ignore the calling God gave them in fear of judgement from their own community. I am not a feminist in any sense, but when it comes to silencing ANY believer from sharing the love and truth of Christ (man or woman) I cannot sit back and watch the Church divide itself on things that have nothing to do with salvation.

You want to discuss sin? What about the leaders that are liars, jealous, prideful, lustful, and gossipers? What about the pastors that preach love and compassion and go home to abuse their family? Because I’ve seen men and women do that in those roles. It’s not a discussion of whether it be man or woman. It should be a decision based a spirit-led calling.

More so, what is the significant of a claim like this? To bring down Christ followers from living how Jesus called us to? Because that’s all you’re doing when you rather have a community have no one leading them to Jesus over someone who isn’t afraid to obey just because they’re a woman.

As a believer who has witnessed woman (sic) step up in communities all over the world, where no man would to share the Gospel, and lead their community towards Christ (even when their life was at risk), I would argue that she ought to continue preaching. 

You can argue that, but it’s an ungodly, unbiblical, worldly argument based solely on your fleshly human desires. It is not based on Scripture, which explains God’s desires to us. If you’re a Christian, God’s Word is your authority for life and doctrine, not your opinions. If you’re a Christian, you’re a slave of Christ, and you’re not entitled to any thought, opinion, belief, position, or worldview other than your Master’s. And if you think you are, I’d be very interested to hear you argue that. 

at the end of the day, the role is for the called, man or woman.

You’re half right, here. The role of pastor, and the function of pastor (preaching) is for the called. God does the calling, and He only calls biblically qualified men through the qualifications He has enumerated in His Word. He has already told us this in Scripture, and Scripture is our authority, not some subjective, extra-biblical feeling that God is “calling” you. And again, this is your ungodly, unbiblical, worldly argument based solely on your fleshly human desires. It is not a biblical argument.

If you research on missionaries of the past

“MIssionaries of the past” (or present or future) are not our authority, or any sort of basis for making decisions or formulating doctrine. Scripture is. Directing someone to look to “missionaries of the past” is to say, “Hey, you need to look to broken, sinful human beings to figure out how to do Christianity instead of looking to Christ and His Word.”.

hundreds of people have been saved by women

Nope. Not one single, solitary person has ever been saved by a woman. Or a man. And if you think anyone ever has, you do not know the gospel. God alone is the only One who has ever saved anyone.

And honestly, using this phraseology really decreases your credibility to address this or any other biblical topic. This is not how mature Christians who know their Bibles and are equipped to engage on these topics frame things.

But if what you actually mean by “saved by women” is that people have gotten saved (by Christ) because a woman shared the gospel with them, of course that’s true, and I daresay that it’s been way more than “hundreds” of people over the last 2000 years.

But, so what? That has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If you’re talking about women sharing the gospel with the lost, that’s called evangelism.

You’re conflating evangelism with pastoring and preaching. Evangelism is sharing the gospel with lost people outside the church, which all Christians are commanded to do. Pastoring and preaching is biblical instruction to saved people inside the church, which God has restricted to biblically qualified men. Evangelism and pastoring/preaching are two completely different, separate things. We have to keep our biblical categories straight.

Evangelism is a completely separate topic from what we’re talking about here, which is women “pastoring,” preaching, teaching men the Bible, and exercising authority over men in the gathering of the Body. Let’s stay on topic.

(For more information on the false conflation of evangelism and pastoring/preaching: Women Preaching the Gospel? at A Word Fitly Spoken)

Are you claiming none of those women should have followed the great commission commanded to ALL believers in Matthew 28

Not at all. All Believers are to carry out the Great Commission. Christian women have been obeying that command -without pretending to be “pastors” or preaching- for the past 2000 years. You don’t have to be a pastor or preach to share the gospel.

One of the primary ways women have historically fulfilled the Great Commission is by pouring the gospel into their children and grandchildren. (Lois and Eunice are a wonderful biblical example to us of this.) This is also why I said earlier that far more than “hundreds” have come to Christ because a woman -their mother- shared the gospel with them. It’s certainly not the only way women can share the gospel, but I feel confident that it’s the primary way.

In fact, women can share the gospel in any way except being a pastor or preaching (or violating any other Scriptures). They can even be missionaries and share the gospel with the lost – men and women – one on one or in any other way that doesn’t violate 1 Timothy 2:11-3:7, Titus 1:5-9, or any other Scripture. I have personal friends who are women who have done just that. I, myself, went on a short term mission trip many years ago and did just that.

Again, you need to learn the difference between evangelism and pastoring/preaching and stop conflating the two.

and that all those lives they pointed to Christ weren’t worth it?

Are you saying it’s only “worth it” or only fulfills the Great Commission if a woman is a “pastor” or preaches to men? Is it not “worth it” if a woman pours the gospel into her children? Shares the gospel with a girlfriend over coffee? Hands a tract to the man ahead of her in the check out line?

And again, the Christian’s measuring stick is rightly handled, in context Scripture, not a sinful human being’s subjective evaluation of whether or not something is “worth it”. You are not qualified to make a Christian argument on this or any other biblical topic until you learn and submit to the doctrine of the authority of Scripture. Right now, you’re trying to remove what you think is a speck in my eye, while the log of biblical illiteracy is protruding far out of your own.

Paul even asks in Romans 10:14-15, how people are to be saved if no one goes to share the Gospel with them.

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? And how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who proclaim good news of good things!”

Romans 10:14-15

He says, “How will they hear without a preacher, and how will they preach unless they are sent?”. 

You do know that God is the author of Scripture, right? And that God doesn’t contradict Himself, so His written Word doesn’t contradict itself, because God is not a liar?

God cannot (not just “does not,” but “cannot,” because He cannot lie) say something in Romans that contradicts what He says in 1 Timothy. (And not only that, Paul is the human writer of both Romans and 1 Timothy, and he’s not contradicting himself in these passages either.)

In 1 Timothy, God forbids women from pastoring, preaching, teaching the Bible to men, and holding authority over men in the gathering of the Body. So we don’t even have to read the Romans passage to know – beyond any doubt – that the Romans passage does not allow women to do those things.

Any time the Bible talks about preachers and preaching, it is talking about men. God doesn’t call or send women to preach. Women can share the gospel without preaching or being pastors.

Arguments like these are the reason we have prideful men in the Church who take roles they’re not called for 

No, ignorance of and rebellion against Scripture -which you’ve amply demonstrated in your comment- are why we have those things.

Pride is a sin for both men and women. Anyone who commits the sin of pride needs to repent.

Men “who take roles they’re not called for”. I can only assume that by this you mean “men serving as pastors who shouldn’t be pastors”. Your (or anyone else’s) worldly, fleshly feelings and opinions are not the standard by which a man is determined to be fit for (“called” to) the pastorate (that’s unbiblical judgment, and a violation of Matthew 7:1), Scripture is, primarily 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.

and we have obedient women trying to ignore the calling God gave them in fear of judgement from their own community.

I’m sorry, but do you actually hear yourself saying this?

Women who defy God’s commands in His written Word are not obedient And they should be fearful of God’s judgment.

Christians who who rightly judge things according to properly handled Scripture are obeying Scripture. Professing Christians who argue for the defiance of Scripture and then denigrate Christians who are obeying Scripture are the ones who are unbiblically judging in violation of Matthew 7:1. 

I am not a feminist in any sense,

Yes, you are. You may not realize it, but the unbiblical position you’ve taken on this issue wouldn’t exist if it werent for feminism. So, at the very least, you are feminist in that sense. You’re holding a feminist position while claiming not to be a feminist, just like you’re claiming to be a Christian while standing in defiance of Christ and His Word.

but when it comes to silencing ANY believer from sharing the love and truth of Christ (man or woman) I cannot sit back 

I’m a woman and I’m sharing the love and truth of Christ, and you’re trying to silence me. More Matthew 7:1-5 hypocrisy. How about not “sitting back” against yourself?

If you think that women not being allowed to pastor and preach is “silencing women,” then you’re accusing God of silencing women. He is the One who issued the command, not me or any other Christian. All we’re doing is repeating what His Word has said for the last 2000 years. Your argument is with Him, not us.

and watch the Church divide itself on things that have nothing to do with salvation.

So you’d say it’s OK for homosexuals and “trans” people and rapists and child abusers to be pastors, right? To your way of thinking, those things “have nothing to do with salvation” either.

I promise, I am saying this as gently and kindly as I possibly can, but you need to hear this, and I would not be loving you biblically if I didn’t say it:

You do not know your Bible. You don’t know what you’re talking about. And as someone who doesn’t know her Bible you are not qualified to weigh in on this issue or assume the lofty position of, “I have to proclaim this ‘truth’ for the good of the church at large.”. Talk about “pridefully taking a role you’re not called for”!

You want to discuss sin?

We are discussing sin. Women defying Scripture by pretending to be pastors, preaching, teaching the Bible to men, and exercising authority over men in the gathering of the Body is sin.

I’m standing on God’s Word and arguing against that sin, You’re standing against God’s Word and arguing for that sin.

What about the leaders that are liars, jealous, prideful, lustful, and gossipers? What about the pastors that preach love and compassion and go home to abuse their family? Because I’ve seen men and women do that in those roles.

What about it? This is a deflection and a red herring, not a biblical argument. 

This “argument” is like saying, “You want to discuss the sin of rape? What about bank robbers? What about murderers? What about kidnaping? What about lying?”. The Bible never teaches us we should ignore one sin simply because a thousand other sins exist.

All of the sins you’ve listed should be dealt with biblically and so should the sin of women defying God’s command against women “pastoring” and preaching. It’s not like we’re limited in the number of sins we can biblically address.

It’s not a discussion of whether it be man or woman.

Correct. God said it’s to be a biblically qualified man. End of discussion.

It should be a decision based a spirit-led calling.

Correct. The Holy Spirit calls only biblically qualified men, only through His breathed out written Word.

More so, what is the significant (sic) of a claim like this? To bring down Christ followers from living how Jesus called us to?

No, to bring Christ followers up to living as Jesus called us to. You’re the one pushing Christ followers away from living as Jesus called us to because you’re encouraging them to defy God’s Word.

Because that’s all you’re doing when you rather have a community have no one leading them to Jesus 

I nowhere suggested in that article that the “community” that woman is pretending to “pastor” should have no one leading them to Jesus. I even explained how she and the other women could lead people to Jesus without disobeying Scripture. 

over someone who isn’t afraid to obey just because they’re a woman.

One more time: A woman who defies Scripture by pretending to be a “pastor” IS NOT OBEYING GOD. She is sinning.

I’ve got one more thing to add, and if you’ve made it this far, I really hope you’ll stick with me and seriously consider this. People who are genuinely born again Believers – new creatures in Christ – are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and understand, embrace, submit to, love, and obey God’s written Word. But one of the fruits of false converts – people who think they’re saved, but have never truly repented and believed the gospel – is that they reject, hate, fight against, disobey, and do not understand God’s written Word.

Because you have amply demonstrated that you do not know God’s Word and because every comment you’ve made above has been a defiance of God’s Word, I fear for your eternity. I would urge and encourage you to do what 2 Corinthians 13:5 says, and examine yourself against Scripture to discover whether or not you are truly a Believer.

Repent, believe the gospel, and be set free of these unbiblical beliefs today.

Additional Resources:

Rock Your Role: Jill in the Pulpit

Counter Arguments to Egalitarianism

If you have a question about: a Bible passage, an aspect of theology, a current issue in Christianity, or how to biblically handle a family, life, or church situation, comment below (I’ll hold all questions in queue {unpublished} for a future edition of The Mailbag) or send me an e-mail or private message. If your question is chosen for publication, your anonymity will be protected.

Mailbag

The Mailbag: I Have to Preach Because No Man Will Step Up

Michelle Lesley

Originally published February 19, 2018

I’ve recently met a woman who is a “pastor” of a church. When asked why she is preaching to men, her response was this:

“Men will not teach. None will stand up. We started as a congregation of women and slowly some husbands came, as well as their sons. But none will take responsibility. So if I do not speak truth and stand up, who will?”

This was in another country I recently visited where men do not take authority, nor do they desire it. Women are primary in every area.

This is a difficult situation to be in, and I do sympathize. I’ve been in church and family situations in which men were not being the godly leaders they were supposed to be. It’s very frustrating. Even more so in the case of your friend, because Scripture prohibits women from stepping in and taking over when a man will not lead the church.

(And all of this, and the following, goes for women in any church who have “stepped in” to a pastoral role or a role Scripture reserves for men such as, but not limited to: worship leader/minister of music, any other pastoral or elder position – with or without the title of “pastor/elder,” teaching co-ed adult Sunday School, Bible study, or small groups, etc.)

But in addition to the fact that the Bible is very clear that your friend is not to preach to men, she’s doing a terrible job as “pastor” on several other counts:

✢ She doesn’t believe God’s Word.

✢ She doesn’t trust God enough to obey His Word.

✢ She doesn’t fear God enough to obey His Word.

✢ She doesn’t believe in the necessity of prayer, or in God’s provision, enough to ask Him to provide a pastor.

✢ She’s not teaching her “congregation” to cry out to the Lord and trust Him to provide. Instead, she’s teaching them to take matters into their own hands when they need something, even if it means disobeying God’s Word. (Kind of like Sarah did.)

✢ She’s teaching her “congregation” that they it’s OK to disobey God if it’s difficult or inconvenient to obey Him.

✢ She’s teaching the women that they don’t have to submit to God’s design for biblical womanhood.

✢ She’s teaching the men to continue to be lazy and shirk their God-given duty to lead. Why should they when a woman is all too willing to step in and do the work for them?

She asks, “If I do not speak truth and stand up, who will?”. My answer to that question is, “That’s God’s business to take care of, not yours.” Her business is to obey Him and trust Him to work out everything else. And besides, she’s not “standing up and speaking truth”, she’s standing up and speaking or demonstrating all the untruths I enumerated above.

My counsel to this woman would be to immediately step down as “pastor,” stop preaching to and instructing the men, and publicly repent to God and to everyone in the church for her sins of disobeying God’s Word and setting a bad example for the church. She should inform them that she will no longer be preaching but that she will be praying for God to raise up a pastor, either from among the men of the church or from outside the church.

The men and women can, and should, meet to pray and sing together every Sunday. One of the other women (the former “pastor” needs to sit out of leadership for a while) can certainly teach a women’s Bible study class. But if the men want a Bible teacher or pastor, one of them is going to have to step up and do it, or God will have to send a man from somewhere else. And the women need to be sure they’re holding their ground and refusing to step into that role. What a godly testimony of obedience they will be to the men! Hopefully, it will shame the men over their own disobedience.

God doesn’t give anyone permission to disobey Him just because it’s hard or inconvenient. It was the hardest thing in the world for Jesus to go to the cross, but He did it anyway because He was obedient to His Father. He was willing to die rather than disobey. That is the example she needs to follow.

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
1 Corinthians 10:13

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Hebrews 12:4

In all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make straight your paths.
Proverbs 3:6

Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act.
Psalm 37:5

When we face tests of our faith, it is not time to take the easy way out and sin, it is God stretching us and giving us an opportunity to trust and obey Him so He can use that situation as a vehicle for growing us to greater maturity and Christlikeness.

This lady, and the rest of the church, has the opportunity here to cry out fervently to God to provide them with a pastor and then trust Him to act on their behalf. That’s exactly what Lydia and the other women at Philippi did, and God sent them Paul!

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
Matthew 7:7-11

Which would bring more glory to God and be more of a testimony to His greatness: for this lady to have taken matters into her own hands and sinned, or for her and the rest of the women to obey God, for everyone to pray and trust God for a pastor, and then to have the awesome experience of God answering that prayer?

There’s nothing amazing, especially in that culture, about men being lazy and women stepping in and picking up the slack. Why have a Christian church that is supposed to be following the all powerful God of the universe be just one more example of that? Instead, they could have an incredible testimony of God providing a pastor and changing the hearts of the men of the church to take responsibility and lead. What kind of an impact would that have on the surrounding culture? How many doors might that open for that church to share the gospel?

Additional Resources

Rock Your Role: Jill in the Pulpit

Basic Training: Obedience: 8 Ways to Stop Making Excuses and Start Obeying Scripture

Basic Training: 5 Ways to Face Tests and Trials Biblically

If you have a question about: a Bible passage, an aspect of theology, a current issue in Christianity, or how to biblically handle a family, life, or church situation, comment below (I’ll hold all questions in queue {unpublished} for a future edition of The Mailbag) or send me an e-mail or private message. If your question is chosen for publication, your anonymity will be protected.

Faith, Sin

Repeating Wrongs Renders Right?

Michelle Lesley

Originally published September 17, 2013

“Four hundred thirty seven.”

“Sorry, that’s not right. Try again, Buddy.”

scribble scribble scribble

“Oh, ok. Four hundred thirty seven.“

“No, Honey. You just said that, and I just told you it was wrong. Give it another try.”

“But it’s 437!”

“Son, I have the answer book right here in front of me. The answer is not 437. Repeating the wrong answer over and over again doesn’t magically make it right.”

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had this conversation -nearly verbatim- with each of my four children in the fourteen years I’ve been home schooling.

But I can tell you that this morning was the first time I realized that this is the same way many people relate to God and the Bible.

When this dialogue takes place between my child and me, it is because the child has done something wrong. He has forgotten to carry the one. Confused a peninsula with an isthmus. Mistaken an adverb for an adjective.

But he can’t see what he’s done wrong, or indeed, that he’s done anything wrong. And because he’s blind to his wrongness, his default position is to assume that he is right and I am wrong. Forget that he’s in fifth grade and I have a bachelor’s degree, half a master’s degree, and nearly two decades of teaching experience. Never mind that this is the fourth time I’ve taught fifth grade from this very same book. Completely disregarded is the fact that I have the teacher key right in front of me that shows exactly what he did wrong and what the right answer is.

No. He’s right. I’m wrong. The book is wrong. Math is stupid.

Foolishness is indeed bound up in the heart of a child.

But foolishness is bound up in all of our hearts when it comes to sin:

“My husband doesn’t treat me right.
God wouldn’t want me to be miserable
for the rest of my life, so my relationship
with the guy at work is just fine.”

“What the Bible says about
homosexuality only had to do
with male cult prostitutes, so my
monogamous homosexual relationship
with my partner isn’t a sin.”

“I’ve gone to church all my life.
Once, I even repeated a ‘sinner’s
prayer’ and was baptized. It doesn’t
matter what my life looks like now,
I’m sure I’m saved because of that.”

“The Bible says women aren’t
to instruct men in the church?
But I feel that God has called me
to be a pastor, so that verse must
not mean what it clearly says.”

Over and over we say it, hoping to convince ourselves, to drown out God’s law that’s written on our hearts, and to shout down anyone who would call us to repentance. Because we’re blind to our wrongness, our default position is to assume that we’re right and God, and His Word, are wrong. Never mind the fact that He’s God -Creator of the entire universe, knows everything, sees everything, has power over everything, and is perfect in holiness- and we’re, well… not.

No. We’re right. He’s wrong. The Bible is wrong. People who agree with God’s Word are just haters.

But, just like I tell my children: repeating the wrong answer over and over again doesn’t magically make it right.  When each of us stands before God on the day of judgment, it’s not going to matter how many times we’ve tried to convince ourselves, others, and God that our way is right. It’s only going to matter what God says is right.

There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.
Proverbs 14:12

Share Your Testimony

Testimony Tuesday: Karen’s Story

Michelle Lesley

Karen’s Story

From the Pulpit to Repentance

Several have asked me to share my journey from the pulpit to repentance. Ten years ago, my husband and I were Charismatic ministers. We served together as Associate Pastors of a church in Texas. I was on the preaching schedule with the men, monthly. Yes, I got the accolades and approval of the church, and the association we were involved with until…. The grace of God reached down and pulled my husband and me both back to the Word of God and out of the fire.

Here is a snapshot of the journey, our journey. It is hard to share. In fact, I have shared our story with select few. Sure, this will bring fiery darts my way, but I really couldn’t care less. I trust that this will help open the eyes of those seeking Truth.

I met my husband in an evangelical church, he was a youth pastor at the time. Both of us were from very Biblically based churches. My husband was the son of a Baptist minister. As a student at Biola College, I remember the warning given to the students by my professor, Dr. Curtis Mitchell, against tongues and the unbiblical Charismatic movement. Truth is, I was curious as most college age young people. I found myself wondering if Dr. Mitchell knew what he was talking about.

I met my husband my sophomore year of Biola. He had a full time job and was a youth pastor. He had a ministry to teens and the kids loved him. He was everything that I prayed and asked God for. We were married one year after we met. I wish I could say we lived happily ever after. When you are on God’s team, attacks come, and they are very real. As a young couple, we found ourselves in two churches, both with serious issues.

After one year of marriage, he was offered a position as a youth pastor at the beach, one block from the ocean. It was an awesome church where we were both very happy. The youth group was growing, kids’ lives were being changed, and parents were grateful. All was well until . . . the senior pastor asked a friend of his to become the Associate Pastor. The new staff member immediately began to breed distrust between the staff. He had an agenda, to bring a copy of the Satan bible into the youth group and have the kids read it. We found ourselves in a spiritual battle that we had never anticipated. We did not want to cause a church split so my husband resigned. (We found out later that this man had a history of going from church to church and causing splits!)

Another local Baptist church contacted my husband. His youth pastor was being transferred by his full-time job, and Phil was asked to step in.

Things were going well at the new church. The youth group was thriving. Nine months in to the job, the senior pastor was asked to resign, the music director’s wife divorced him, and then the music director committed suicide. Upset, discouraged, angry at God were only some of my emotions. I wanted to quit the ministry. We both were so discouraged. It was at that point that Phil decided that he was through with the ministry. We were done!

The last two churches had taken their toll on us. We hardly read the Bible, only attended church. Our marriage was having issues and another baby was on the way. We were trying to keep ourselves together, no one knew the depth of our pain and discouragement. Looking back, I can see clearly that what happened to us was a direct attack from the enemy.

In the midst of the pain, I knew that the God was the answer. Not wanting anything more to do with the traditional church, I gravitated towards the popular charismatic movement. Some of my family had gone that direction, they seemed happy – so I thought maybe that’s what we needed.

Looking back. I now see now that it was all a trap. The discouragement with the church, the hurt, thinking that God let us down . . . we were slowly being destroyed. I got into the Charismatic movement first. I started by going to meetings, listening to TBN, talking to my family. Phil tried to warn me but being hard headed, stubborn and thinking I knew more than he did (he wasn’t reading his Bible so what could he say to me????) I took the bait and had my first experience. I say “experience” because everything seemed to be an experience from that point on. To be truthful, I did feel happier, read my Bible, (substituted the KJV with the Amplified version), and was nicer to live with. He decided that because I had made some positive changes that maybe I was on to something. He jumped in with me and we started attending a Charismatic fellowship. Please note as I write from this point on, the progression . . .

Discouragement, mad at God, feeling empty, Charismatic appeals, we take the bait.

At no time did we consult God’s Word on any of the teaching we were hearing. The Bible was used in the sermons with enough truth that we bought into the lie.

We moved our family to Tulsa. Phil enrolled in Rhema but half way through the first year, he left school. We look back and see the grace of God even in that situation. In the meantime, we had become friends with another couple and she and I were convinced we were supposed to be ministers. Women ministers were all the rage, and all were serving with their husbands, so why not us? We all continued in the Word of Faith churches in Tulsa, voraciously reading every book, attending meetings. At one point, we all decided to be ordained. After applying and being interviewed, we were ordained along with many other couples.

We found a church that was growing and we got involved. We thought we could use our “ministry gifts” there. We did become leaders in the church. I led a woman’s group and together we did a weekly care group in our home. We were being destroyed emotionally as the church was spiritually abusive. It was taking its toll on everyone, including our kids. We both began to see how the Word of God was being twisted from the pulpit to say things that were not there and there was no demonstration of the love of God.

One morning, while having my quiet time, I read an article about spiritually abusive churches and the signs of a toxic, abusive environment. Everything I read we were experiencing. It was clear that we had to leave.

I went to my husband with tears streaming down my face and shared what I believed God was saying. I trusted him to make a family decision. It was the next Sunday that the pastor stood up and said to the congregation, “If you are called to this church, you are called to me.” Walking out, my husband looked at me and said, “We are done.” We quit the fellowship with a resignation letter and never looked back.

A job change was in the air. We both got jobs in Dallas, TX. We left Oklahoma and never looked back. Our daughter moved to Seattle and within a few years, our son did the same. We were all out of Oklahoma!

After a couple of years, we decided to go back to church but did not know where to go. Someone had invited us to attend a little Charismatic start up church and we went. We fell in love with the Filipino pastor and his dear wife. We started going and helping them. The pastor invited us to be on staff and he submitted papers for our ministerial license. (We had rescinded our other ministry certificates years earlier). We became co-associate pastors. We loved the people and we both preached one Sunday a month. Phil and I had begun our personal studies at home, using the KJV Bible. We studied the Emergent Church and saw how it was infiltrating the organization. We read John MacArthur’s book, Charismatic Chaos, and scales began to fall from our eyes. Everything that John MacArthur wrote in his book was 100% accurate. We had experienced it first hand and had lived it.

When I saw that I had not held to the faith that was once delivered to the saints, tears of repentance gushed. I cried for weeks. I had wronged the Lord. I had been duped, taken the bait of Satan, and strayed way off the track. Phil had his own similar moment with the Lord. The beautiful part of this testimony is that each of us came to the same place at the same time using the same Bible. God, in his grace, had snatched us out of the fire. We now had a decision to make. We then drafted a letter of resignation to the organization and walked away.

We were done. We had each other, we had God’s Word. We had already walked away from Word of Faith in Tulsa, and now we walked away from everything Charismatic. The circle was complete. We went into Babylon but God brought us out. We found a Biblical church where women are in their place. I have never looked back.

If you are reading this, I plead with you to think Bible, read your Bible, stop listening to Charismatic/Word of faith/Emergent church and women preachers. We tossed books, tapes, cd’s, Bibles. Our library was quite large. Yes, we tossed our huge library in the trash.

Today we stand on God’s Word. I don’t need to preach to be fulfilled. God has given me a national platform in a dental organization. I influence women all over the country and as God gives opportunity, I share his grace. I found my place in Christ, in my marriage, and in my church. I am 100% fulfilled being the person God has called me to be.

Today I stand heart- broken as I look across Christianity and see the deception. With tears, I am humbled and grateful for God’s grace, His forgiveness, His love, and the Truth of His Word.

We have come full circle – back to the Bible and the roots we were raised with. I pray that you too will find the Truth. Seek and Ye shall find. Here is a clue . . . Truth is in God’s Word!

Ladies, God is still at work in the hearts and lives of His people, including yours! Would you like to share a testimony of how God saved you, how He has blessed you, convicted you, taught you something from His Word, brought you out from under false doctrine, placed you in a good church or done something otherwise awesome in your life? Private/direct message me on social media, e-mail me (MichelleLesley1@yahoo.com), or comment below. Your testimony can be as brief as a few sentences or as long as 1500 words. Let’s encourage one another with God’s work in our lives!

Mailbag

The Mailbag: I Have to Preach Because No Man Will Step Up

Michelle Lesley

I’ve recently met a woman who is a “pastor” of a church. When asked why she is preaching to men, her response was this:

“Men will not teach. None will stand up. We started as a congregation of women and slowly some husbands came, as well as their sons. But none will take responsibility. So if I do not speak truth and stand up, who will?”

This was in another country I recently visited where men do not take authority, nor do they desire it. Women are primary in every area.

This is a difficult situation to be in, and I do sympathize. I’ve been in church and family situations in which men were not being the godly leaders they were supposed to be. It’s very frustrating. Even more so in the case of your friend, because Scripture prohibits women from stepping in and taking over when a man will not lead the church.

(And all of this, and the following, goes for women in any church who have “stepped in” to a pastoral role or a role Scripture reserves for men such as, but not limited to: worship leader/minister of music, any other pastoral or elder position – with or without the title of “pastor/elder,” teaching co-ed adult Sunday School, Bible study, or small groups, etc.)

But in addition to the fact that the Bible is very clear that your friend is not to preach to men, she’s doing a terrible job as “pastor” on several other counts:

✢ She doesn’t believe God’s Word.

✢ She doesn’t trust God enough to obey His Word.

✢ She doesn’t fear God enough to obey His Word.

✢ She doesn’t believe in the necessity of prayer, or in God’s provision, enough to ask Him to provide a pastor.

✢ She’s not teaching her “congregation” to cry out to the Lord and trust Him to provide. Instead, she’s teaching them to take matters into their own hands when they need something, even if it means disobeying God’s Word. (Kind of like Sarah did.)

✢ She’s teaching her “congregation” that they it’s OK to disobey God if it’s difficult or inconvenient to obey Him.

✢ She’s teaching the women that they don’t have to submit to God’s design for biblical womanhood.

✢ She’s teaching the men to continue to be lazy and shirk their God-given duty to lead. Why should they when a woman is all too willing to step in and do the work for them?

She asks, “If I do not speak truth and stand up, who will?”. My answer to that question is, “That’s God’s business to take care of, not yours.” Her business is to obey Him and trust Him to work out everything else. And besides, she’s not “standing up and speaking truth”, she’s standing up and speaking or demonstrating all the untruths I enumerated above.

My counsel to this woman would be to immediately step down as “pastor,” stop preaching to and instructing the men, and publicly repent to God and to everyone in the church for her sins of disobeying God’s Word and setting a bad example for the church. She should inform them that she will no longer be preaching but that she will be praying for God to raise up a pastor, either from among the men of the church or from outside the church.

The men and women can, and should, meet to pray and sing together every Sunday. One of the other women (the former “pastor” needs to sit out of leadership for a while) can certainly teach a women’s Bible study class. But if the men want a Bible teacher or pastor, one of them is going to have to step up and do it, or God will have to send a man from somewhere else. And the women need to be sure they’re holding their ground and refusing to step into that role. What a godly testimony of obedience they will be to the men! Hopefully, it will shame the men over their own disobedience.

God doesn’t give anyone permission to disobey Him just because it’s hard or inconvenient. It was the hardest thing in the world for Jesus to go to the cross, but He did it anyway because He was obedient to His Father. He was willing to die rather than disobey. That is the example she needs to follow.

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
1 Corinthians 10:13

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
Hebrews 12:4

In all your ways acknowledge him,
    and he will make straight your paths.
Proverbs 3:6

Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act.
Psalm 37:5

When we face tests of our faith, it is not time to take the easy way out and sin, it is God stretching us and giving us an opportunity to trust and obey Him so He can use that situation as a vehicle for growing us to greater maturity and Christlikeness.

This lady, and the rest of the church, has the opportunity here to cry out fervently to God to provide them with a pastor and then trust Him to act on their behalf. That’s exactly what Lydia and the other women at Philippi did, and God sent them Paul!

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
Matthew 7:7-11

Which would bring more glory to God and be more of a testimony to His greatness: for this lady to have taken matters into her own hands and sinned, or for her and the rest of the women to obey God, for everyone to pray and trust God for a pastor, and then to have the awesome experience of God answering that prayer?

There’s nothing amazing, especially in that culture, about men being lazy and women stepping in and picking up the slack. Why have a Christian church that is supposed to be following the all powerful God of the universe be just one more example of that? Instead, they could have an incredible testimony of God providing a pastor and changing the hearts of the men of the church to take responsibility and lead. What kind of an impact would that have on the surrounding culture? How many doors might that open for that church to share the gospel?

Additional Resources

Rock Your Role: Jill in the Pulpit

Basic Training: Obedience: 8 Ways to Stop Making Excuses and Start Obeying Scripture

Basic Training: 5 Ways to Face Tests and Trials Biblically

If you have a question about: a Bible passage, an aspect of theology, a current issue in Christianity, or how to biblically handle a family, life, or church situation, comment below (I’ll hold all questions in queue {unpublished} for a future edition of The Mailbag) or send me an e-mail or private message. If your question is chosen for publication, your anonymity will be protected.