Michelle Lesley

Photo courtesy of Grace Community Church

If your initial reaction to the title of this post is “What recent accusations against John MacArthur and GCC?” do yourself a favor and just ignore what follows. Click off and go do or read something more edifying. Trust me.

In fact, I really didn’t even want to address this internet dumpster fire. I wanted to give it the full-throttled ignoring it so richly deserves.

But because several of you have asked me to weigh in, and because a lot of people are falling for the narrative being spun by the accuser, I’m reluctantly (and as briefly as possible) broaching the subject and providing you with some information to dispel the innuendo, gossip, and misrepresentations being disseminated as fact under the guise of “journalism”.

On March 8, blogger Julie Roys published an article¹ essentially accusing John MacArthur and the elders of Grace Community Church of sinfully and cruelly mishandling a case of child abuse twenty years ago, and of mistreating the mother of the children who brought the situation to the elders’ attention by way of requesting marital counseling.

Roys has a storied history of making sensationalistic allegations against John MacArthur and GCC which later prove to be false. (I believe I read somewhere that this is her 39th article that has something to do with him or the church, though I can’t recall the source, so I can’t verify that.)

Here’s just one example of that from recent years:

Regarding the current allegations, Jon Harris did the heavy lifting for us on a recent episode of his podcast, Conversations that Matter. He provides objective, biblical analysis of the accusations, the facts of the case, Roys’ craftiness in the way she words things, information that was left out of her article, and so on.

John MacArthur and the David Gray Situation | Conversations that Matter | March 25, 2022

GCC has not publicly responded to the allegations, but this is the email (included in Jon’s video above) they’ve apparently been sending out in response to individual inquiries:

Jon posted a follow-up episode, Recap of David Gray Situation and Russell Moore Weighs in on Abuse and Divorce on March 26. The two main points he made recapping his previous episode were: 1) to apologize for accidentally calling the woman at the center of the issue “Elaine,” throughout the original video, when her actual name is “Eileen,” and 2) to clarify that the “Grace Community Church Response” (above) is not an official, public statement from GCC, but rather what amounts to a “form letter” email sent as a reply to individuals inquiring about the situation.

Jon released yet another follow-up today, March 29: My Position on David Gray & Revisiting the Chicago Statement, responding to pushback and requests for clarification from his initial video. One interesting point you may want to make note of for future reference: In the initial video, Jon said that even if GCC could not release a public statement on the matter due to the confidentiality required in counseling situations, church members who were well acquainted with the Grays and the situation might come forward and speak publicly about what happened. Jon apparently received such an email from a GCC member who is prayerfully considering speaking out. She did not find Eileen’s testimony at trial to be credible.

My personal take on this situation is the same as it was before Roys’ most recent allegations. Julie Roys has an ax to grind against John MacArthur and is not a trustworthy source. (She is not a trustworthy source like the Grand Canyon is not a little hole in the ground.) I would recommend you stay as far away from her writing as possible and get your information from a fair, reliable, biblical source not tainted by ulterior motives.

When I have said things like this on social media, Roys’ supporters have, not surprisingly, accused me of thinking John MacArthur can do no wrong. Not so. First of all, there have been several times over the years when I’ve thought things John MacArthur has said or done were wrong, and I also don’t align 100% with his theology. Second, if Roys went after anybody else, I’d say the same kinds of things, because the main issue here is not the object of her accusations, but her tactics. And, finally, if Roys’ accusations were reported by a reliable source, and/or admitted to by John MacArthur or Grace Community Church, I’d believe them.

And that’s all I’ve got to say about this issue.

(If you haven’t already, please read and follow the instructions above the comment box before commenting. I will not be debating this further in the comments section, via email, or on social media, and I will not be publishing any comments, responding to any emails, or entertaining any social media comments which are argumentative or accusatory in nature. You’re free to state your arguments and accusations on the issue on your own platforms.)

¹I am intentionally not providing a link to Roys’ article for three reasons: first, because her slander doesn’t deserve the clicks (and the subsequent boost to her analytics); second, because the content of her article is emotionally manipulative, and the purpose of my article is to provide some objectivity; and third, because you can get the salient points of her story (without being emotionally manipulated) from the information I’ve provided here. If you feel you absolutely have to read her article, you’re free to find it by Googling.

Complementarianism, Mailbag, Worship

The Mailbag: Women “Worship Leaders” and Confusing Ecclesiology

March 28, 2022March 28, 2022 Michelle Lesley

I have read on previous pages about your response to female worship leaders, and reading your article Women Preaching: It’s Not a Secondary Doctrinal Issue prompted a few questions from me. Our church is now allowing women to lead worship from the stage. The official music director is male. Women will now be allowed to fill the role of band leader on a rotating basis on Sundays (along with a few males). They will pick songs for their Sunday set that must be approved by the music director and elders. It is being put forth to us as not being a problem because the preaching elder is the actual “worship leader” and that this is no different than women leading a few songs in a worship set. And that it doesn’t violate authority because she can’t “teach in an authoritative way.” And we have an upcoming discussion with the elders because we believe this violates the authority aspect of 1 Timothy 2:12. Can you weigh in? Are we wrong in this? Also, is this a sin issue or a secondary issue?

I’m so sorry this has become a dilemma in your church. I know things like this can be distressing when you love your church and are concerned about its fidelity to Scripture.

I’m really sorry, but I am thoroughly confused by what it is that these women are actually doing with regard to leading the music portion of the worship service, and who is in charge of, or leading, what. And I suspect this confusion points to a deeper issue. So let me just offer a few general thoughts and principles.

Part of the confusion here (at least on my part) is the term “worship leader”. It’s too generic and interpreted in so many different ways by different people.

I understand what your pastor (preaching elder) is saying when he says that he is the “worship leader” because I’ve heard other pastors say this as something of a pushback against the idea that “worship” equals “singing,” when, really, all of the worship service (preaching, prayer, singing, etc.) is worship.

So he’s saying he’s the “worship leader” because the buck stops with him on all elements of the worship service, and he’s leading the worship service. I don’t disagree with that, but the terminology is confusing, and this concept muddies the water when it comes to biblical ecclesiology and to questions like yours. It is not biblical for a woman to serve as this kind of “worship leader” because the biblical terminology for this position is “pastor” or “elder” and Scripture prohibits women from being pastors and elders.

Then you have people who use the term “worship leader” to mean “minister of music” or “music pastor” – the pastor who oversees and puts together the music portion of the worship service and directs the choir, instruments, and congregation during the worship service. It is not biblical for a woman (or a biblically unqualified man) to serve as this kind of “worship leader” because this is a pastoral/elder position of leadership in the church, and Scripture prohibits women (and unqualified men) from being pastors and elders.

Finally, there are people who use the term “worship leader” to mean anyone on the platform who’s directing, singing, or playing an instrument. People in the choir or on the praise team are “worship leaders”, the pianist and drummer are “worship leaders”, etc. With the exception of filling the position of minister of music, it is biblical for women to be this kind of “worship leader” – singing and playing instruments under the leadership of the minister of music. The problem here is the word “leader”. These women are not leading, they are being led by the minister of music.

So the term “worship leader” is already confusing. Now we’ve got women “leading worship from the stage,” “official music director,” “band leader,” and women “leading a few songs in a worship set”. Please understand, dear reader, that I’m not faulting or criticizing you for using any of this terminology – I completely understand that you were only trying to be clear. But it’s still all very confusing to me, because it seems to be a confusing model for worship.

When you say women are “leading worship from the stage” and “leading a few songs in a worship set,” I don’t know if that means they are stepping up and acting as if they’re the minister of music, or if they’re simply on the platform singing under the direction of the minister of music, or if they’re singing a solo during one of the songs. Are “official music director” and “band leader” the same thing or two different positions? Is this person only conducting the musicians on the platform or the entire congregation? When you say that songs must be approved by the “music director and elders” does this mean the person in charge of the music portion of the worship service is not an elder (even though this is a pastoral position)?

My point here is that if I’m confused, and you’re unclear on whether or not women should be doing whatever it is they’re doing, musically, before and during the worship service, there are probably a lot of people in your church who are also confused and unclear.

I suspect that most, if not all, of this confusion could be cleared up if your church had a solid ecclesiology regarding the pastoral/elder position of minister of music. Because, right now, what should be one pastor/elder in the position of minister of music, who should be overseeing and leading all of the things you mentioned, sounds like a chaotic revolving door of a multitude of people (most of whom, I doubt are biblically qualified as pastors/elders). I’m guessing the foundational problem here is not what the women are or aren’t doing, but that you don’t have a pastor/elder in the position of minister of music.

Also at issue is that it sounds like your church is following what I call a “concert” model of worship rather than a “congregational” model of worship. There’s nothing wrong with Christian bands and concerts per se, but that is extra-curricular worshiptainment, not a model for the church’s worship service. The music portion of the worship service is not to be led by a “band” performing a “concert,” and the people in their “audience” can sing along if they want to, and happen to know the words and melody, and can follow all the bridges and ad libbing.

The music portion of the worship service is where the pastor/elder of music shepherds, leads, and instructs the congregation in skillfully and worshipfully praising and exalting God together as a body and building one another up through the Word in song:

…be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Ephesians 5:18b-20, Colossians 3:16

The confusion and chaos taking place in your church seems to prove these things out. And remember what the Bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 14, that great chapter on orderly worship:

God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
1 Corinthians 14:33a

Regarding the selection of songs for the worship service: Again, this would not be an issue if you had one pastor/elder as a minister of music. There’s certainly nothing wrong with any church member suggesting a particular song to the minister of music. He can prayerfully consider the suggestion and use it or not as it fits in with his pastoral objective for the music portion of the worship service. But with this “revolving door” leadership model at your church, there’s confusion, and the issue of women planning the worship service arises, when that’s really the job of the pastor/elder minister of music.

To me, the questions of “Is this sin or a secondary issue?” and “Does this violate the authority clause of 1 Timothy 2:12?” as it pertains to your particular church are nearly moot. The main issue is not what the women are doing. The women are like pictures hanging crookedly on the wall of a house that has a crack in the foundation. The issue is not the crooked pictures, but that the foundation needs to be fixed. When the crack in the foundation is fixed, the pictures will hang straight.

How to get started fixing that foundation? I would highly recommend that your elders keep an eye out for the next G3 Worship Workshop and make every effort to attend. And also that they should read everything they can get their hands on by Scott Aniol.

I want to commend you and your husband for meeting with the elders to calmly, biblically, and directly discuss your concerns. That’s exactly what you should be doing and exactly what I recommend church members do in situations like this. Great job!

For anyone who would like to explore the subject more, I have explained in more detail why women should not fill the position of minister of music in my article Rock Your Role FAQs (#16).

If you have a question about: a Bible passage, an aspect of theology, a current issue in Christianity, or how to biblically handle a family, life, or church situation, comment below (I’ll hold all questions in queue {unpublished} for a future edition of The Mailbag) or send me an e-mail or private message. If your question is chosen for publication, your anonymity will be protected.

Psalm 119 Bible Study

Psalm 119: The Glory of God’s Word ~ Lesson 7

March 23, 2022March 23, 2022 Michelle Lesley

Previous Lessons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Read Psalm 119:81-96

Recall the things from the introductory lesson that you wanted to keep in mind as you study the text of Psalm 119.

Don’t forget to read in complete sentences instead of stopping at the end of each verse.

Recall the themes you’ve been noticing in Psalm 119. Watch for those themes to be repeated in today’s and future passages. You may wish to make a list of those themes to refer to throughout this study.

Questions to Consider

1. Review your notes from last week’s lesson. Does that passage relate to this week’s passage? How? Do you notice any repeated words, thoughts, or themes?

2. Notice the I/me/my >>> You/Your pattern in 81-83. Make a 2-column chart, and write all of the I/me/my’s on the left and all of the You/Your’s on the right. What does this teach us about how the psalmist regards God? How we should regard God? What does it teach us about God’s (and God’s Word’s) sufficiency and sovereignty in our suffering?

3. What is the overall theme of this section? Suffering can often be categorized in one of three ways: “deserved” suffering (suffering the direct consequences of your own sin), “undeserved” suffering (suffering as a result of someone else’s sin {abuse, being a victim of a crime, etc.} or as a result of living in a fallen world {illness, natural disasters, etc.}), and persecution (suffering as a direct result of your testimony of Christ). Which kind of suffering is the psalmist experiencing here? How does the psalmist characterize those persecuting him in 85-87, 95?

As Christians, Scripture teaches us to expect persecution for our testimony. Compare what the New Testament teaches us to expect regarding persecution with what the psalmist is describing here. How are the two similar or different?

Sometimes Christians equate “persecution” with martyrdom, physical torture, or imprisonment. Is that how the psalmist is describing his persecution? Second Timothy 3:12 says, “all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted”. Over the last 2000 years, have all Christians who lived godly lives been martyred, tortured, or imprisoned? If not, is this verse of Scripture untrue, or is it possible that we’re defining “persecution” incorrectly? If persecution is more of a spectrum, with martyrdom, torture, and imprisonment at the “most difficult” end, what kinds of things would be at the “easiest to endure” end? In the middle? Where, on the spectrum, would you say the psalmist’s persecution fell? Have you ever experienced persecution? Where, on the spectrum, did your persecution fall? (You may wish to read my article 4 Things You Need to Understand About Christian Persecution.)

4. How would you characterize the urgency of the psalmist’s plea in 84-86? Is our posture toward suffering that we are OK with God “taking His time” to alleviate it, or do we, like the psalmist, cry out, “How long must your servant endure?…Help me!” (84,86) when we’re suffering, do our minds go to the “How long, O Lord?” passages of Scripture, like this one, or are passages where God seems to help immediately and miraculously (e.g. parting the Red Sea, the provision of manna, raising the dead, etc.) our go to? Do we ever stop to think about how much “How long, O Lord?” went on prior to some of those seemingly immediate miracles? Why does God often seem to wait so long before alleviating our suffering?

In previous lessons we have seen the psalmist say that affliction taught him obedience to God and His Word, a concept that’s reiterated for Christians in the New Testament. What are some other aspects of godly character God grows us in when suffering lasts a long time? How, and in which verses, does the psalmist demonstrate in this passage that long and drawn out suffering teaches us endurance and dependence on God? What does the New Testament teach us about this?

What does today’s passage teach us about where our focus should be when we are being persecuted? How does keeping our focus on Christ help us in times of persecution?

5. Notice the structure of 89-96. The psalmist moves from the “macro” of God, His Word, and His work, to the “micro,” and back again to the “macro”. How does he do this in:

89-91:

92-95:

How do verses 89 and 96 “bookend” this section with the concepts that God’s Word is eternal, transcending the bounds of time (89), permanent, transcending the ravages of time (89), and limitless, transcending all temporal barriers and situations (96)? How are these characteristics rooted in the nature of God, Himself?

Explain how, even though – or maybe, because – God’s Word is eternal, permanent, and limitless, on the macro level, it is able to work within the framework or containment of the temporal on a micro level – human history, the bounds of the earth and the laws of nature, our circumstances, our human frailty, etc. How can something so vast be “contained” by our tiny little lives and circumstances? How does this characteristic of God’s Word help the psalmist, and us, during times of persecution?

Spend some time meditating on this characteristic of God and His Word, and let it lead you to worship Him.

Praying Psalm 119

Have you ever tried praying the psalms? I want to encourage you to try praying part of Psalm 119 back to God each week of this study. (If you’re familiar with my other studies, this will take the place of the weekly “Homework” section.)

The psalms are uniquely suited for praying back to God, both verbatim and conceptually, because they are often written as prayers – as though the psalmist is talking to God. Did you notice that about today’s passage? In which verses?

What is a concept or thought for your own life that the Holy Spirit impressed on your heart or convicted you about from today’s passage? Is there a particular verse(s), or maybe the whole passage, that you would like to pray back to God verbatim? Whatever your “prayer point” from today’s lesson, pray it at least daily until we get to the next lesson.

Suggested Memory Verse

False Doctrine, False Teachers, Movies

Movie Tuesday: Church of Tares

March 22, 2022June 18, 2022 Michelle Lesley

Are you familiar with Rick Warren and his books from several years ago, The Purpose Driven Life and The Purpose Driven Church? Today’s Movie Tuesday feature, Church of Tares, takes a look at Rick Warren, his materials, programs, and his mentors, and demonstrates how the “Purpose Driven” movement grew into the seeker driven and church growth / megachurch movements, and how they may eventually terminate into a one world religion.

Sound a little “out there” or borderline conspiracy theory? Well, we’ve been seeing a lot of “out there” things come to pass lately. Grab your popcorn, snuggle up on the couch, and watch and judge for yourself.

Supplemental Related Info:

Andy Stanley

Craig Groeschel

Steven Furtick

Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, and the “Contemplative Christianity” movement

Bill Hybels / Willow Creek

Mailbag

The Mailbag: Potpourri (Teaching hubby the Bible… Generational sin… Blood moons… God honors women preaching?… Remarriage forbidden)

March 21, 2022May 25, 2026 Michelle Lesley

Welcome to another “potpourri” edition of The Mailbag, where I give short(er) answers to several questions rather than a long answer to one question.

I like to take the opportunity in these potpourri editions to let new readers know about my comments/e-mail/messages policy. I’m not able to respond individually to most e-mails and messages, so here are some helpful hints for getting your questions answered more quickly. Remember, the search bar (at the very bottom of each page) can be a helpful tool!

Or maybe I answered your question already? Check out my article The Mailbag: Top 10 FAQs to see if your question has been answered and to get some helpful resources.

A comment left on my Rock Your Role FAQs article…

How would this apply within marriage? My husband does not read the Bible..he claims to believe in God, but I don’t actually see him seeking. Is it wrong for me to share with him what I learn or read in my Bible? Thank you for your advice!!

I know that having an unsaved or less spiritually mature husband can be really difficult. I’m sure this is a question many of my readers are struggling with.

When you say, “How would this apply within marriage?” I’m not really sure if “this” means a specific question and answer within that article or if “this” means the biblical prohibition against women teaching men, in general. I’m going to go with the latter since I can’t guess the former. :0)

The biblical prohibition against women teaching the Bible to men has a very specific context: the gathering of the church body. Your marriage is not the gathering of the church body.

It is perfectly fine and biblical for you to share what you’re learning from the Bible with your husband if he is open and receptive to it. But, and this is important, it is also perfectly fine and biblical for you not to share what you’re learning from the Bible with him if he is not open and receptive to it, if it makes him angry, or if he tells you to stop nagging or preaching at him.

A lot of women in the New Testament church were in the very same position. They were saved, and their husbands were not. First Peter 3:1-6 was written just for them, and for you. I would recommend studying that passage as well as 1 Corinthians 7:16, Ephesians 5:22-33, and Proverbs 31:10-31 to guide your own behavior as a godly wife. And, if you think it would be helpful, you may want to work through my Bible study on biblical womanhood.

My article The Mailbag: Can I share the gospel with my unsaved husband? is another good resource. If you need help presenting the gospel to your husband, check out the What must I do to be saved? tab in the blue menu bar at the top of this page.

One more suggestion: Think about making an appointment with your pastor for some biblical counsel on being a gospel influence on your husband. You may want to also ask him to point you to (or you may already know) a godly older woman in your church who has walked faithfully through the situation of having an unsaved husband, and who can disciple you through this.

Do you have any information about the generational sin/curses teaching? I’d love to understand if this is a false teaching and if it is…understand what the Bible really says. I don’t buy into the fact my great great grandma was sinful and that is why someone in the family is messed up.

You’re correct, this idea is diametrically opposed to what Scripture teaches. Certainly our children can be hurt or negatively impacted by the sins we commit. They can learn sinful behavior from watching us sin. And we are all sinners by nature. But children don’t genetically inherit a particular sin(s) – say, for example, profanity or adultery – from their parents. And God doesn’t punish us for the sins of our parents or ancestors.

The absolute best resource for refuting this false idea is Ezekiel 18. It is so beautifully clear and such a wonderful picture of the gospel smack dab in the middle of the Old Testament. Give it a good study.

Additionally, we released a podcast episode a while back called What Do We Do with the Guilt of Generational Sin? that may help.

Does “The moon turning to blood” refer to what we consider a “blood moon”?

Not as it pertains to being a sign of Jesus’ return, no. I think you’ll find this article and this article to be helpful.

Do you think it’s possible for God to “honour” a women’s preaching that is bringing people to Christ?

This is really two separate questions about women preaching. Let’s break it down:

1. Can God graciously save someone, despite the fact that he’s sitting under a woman who’s sinning by pretending to be a pastor? Yes. He also saves people who are currently Mormons, currently being abused, etc. God can save anyone despite someone else’s sin.

2. Does the fact that God saves someone who’s under the influence or authority of someone who’s sinning mean that God approves of or honors the sin being committed? No. God doesn’t honor people for sinning.

God doesn’t honor or approve of Mormon false teachers just because someone happens to hear enough actual Bible to get saved while still in Mormonism. Mormonism is still idolatry, and that Mormon leader is still committing the sin of teaching false doctrine. Or, let’s say a pastor is secretly abusing his son. If the son gets saved during one of Dad’s sermons does that mean God honors or approves of the abuse? Of course not. It’s a display of God’s mercy and grace that God still saves people despite other people’s sin.

The same applies to someone who gets saved despite sitting under a woman who’s sinning by pretending to be a pastor.

Additionally, granting for argument’s sake that she’s actually preaching the biblical gospel, the fact that the woman “pastor” got that part right doesn’t excuse or make up for her sin of rebelling against God’s Word. If I work in a soup kitchen all week long, but every Saturday I go out and murder somebody, we know that my good works during the week don’t outweigh, excuse, or make up for the sin of murder. I still need to repent of being a murderer, and the woman “pastor” still has to repent from rebelling against God’s Word regarding her role in the church.

I was widowed a year ago, and a divorced man asked me to marry him but my pastor said it was absolutely forbidden. Can you please help me with this issue? The entire world is divorced!

Let me first offer my condolences for the loss of your husband. I can’t imagine how difficult that must be.

Have you asked your pastor to explain why* he said this? I’m not exactly sure of his reasoning, so let me just offer a few general thoughts.

One reason your pastor might have said this is that he holds to what’s called the permanence view of marriage. This view essentially says there are no biblical grounds for divorce (for anyone) and, thus, no biblical allowance for remarriage.

On the other hand, he may believe (as I, and many other Christians do) that, while reconciliation of a marriage is always the first and best goal, and that, in most cases, divorce is a sin, there are certain circumstances (chiefly adultery and abandonment) in which the Bible allows for divorce as a last resort. If that’s the case, depending on the circumstances of your gentleman friend’s divorce, your pastor may be saying that his divorce was not biblical, and, therefore, the two of you should not marry.

Finally, your pastor may have reasons aside from the divorce that would cause him to tell you not to marry this gentleman. Perhaps your pastor knows that he isn’t saved, that he is cheating on you, that he’s engaging in criminal activity, etc. I hope that’s not the case, but that’s the only other possibility I could think of.

I would suggest you talk to your pastor about this, hear him out on his reasoning, and compare his reasoning to rightly handled, in context Scripture. It could very well be that he’s offering you good, biblical counsel. Or…not.

*Readers, I’m not faulting anyone for asking me a question like this, but I often receive questions about why a certain person – whether it’s a false teacher, your husband, your pastor, a friend, whoever – did or said something, or what he meant by what he said or did. Generally speaking, I have no way of knowing why a particular person said or did a particular thing or what it meant. I can only speculate. If you want to know why someone did or said something, or what he meant, it’s best to go to that person and ask him or her directly.