Mailbag – Page 43 – Michelle Lesley

Is it wrong for people to exclaim “Oh my G-d” in various situations? I have heard it said casually as well as in response to a tragedy or cry for protection. I would assume that it could be taking the Lord’s name in vain in certain circumstances (e.g. Oh my G–, look at that cute kitten!) but not in others. How can I discern when it is used correctly in ambiguous situations?

That’s a great question since this phrase and its initials (OMG) are used so frequently in real life, on TV, on social media, in books… it’s everywhere! Bless you for wanting your speech to honor the Lord!

A couple of explanatory points before I give my answer:

I’m including the initials OMG because when people see or hear those initials, they understand it to mean “Oh my G–!”. I’ve heard a few Christians say that when they use the letters OMG, in their minds, the “G” stands for gosh or goodness. That’s great, but that’s not what the overwhelming majority of other people think when they see or hear those letters, and they can’t read your mind, so that’s not what it means to them.

The third Commandment (taking God’s name in vain) is not limited to this phrase and its initials. There are many ways to misuse God’s name: profanity or offhand phrases (ex: “Good L-rd!”) that include any of the Trinity’s names, taking a vow or oath in God’s name flippantly and/or not keeping it, misrepresenting God or His Word to others, etc. However, the reader is asking only about this particular phrase, so I will simply answer the question she asked.

The third Commandment is:

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Exodus 20:7

Let’s start with a fast and dirty rule of thumb in case that’s what you need: in today’s society in general, “Oh my G–!” and OMG are virtually always used in a way that takes God’s name in vain.

There are only a couple of instances I can think of in which using this phrase is not taking God’s name in vain, and I rarely even hear them in church, let alone on the street, on TV, etc. (Readers, if you can think of others, please comment and let us know.)

There are several verses of Scripture in various books of the Bible that contain the phrase, “O my God”. (I found it interesting that Nehemiah was fond of that phrase, as were the psalmists. Those two books contain the most verses with that phrase.) Here are a couple of examples:

Remember for my good, O my God, all that I have done for this people.
Nehemiah 5:19

O my God, in you I trust; let me not be put to shame; let not my enemies exult over me.
Psalm 25:2

If you’ll examine all of these verses you might notice a few things about the way this phrase is used in Scripture that sets it apart from the way this phrase is normally used today.

First, this phrase is used to address God directly. The people saying or writing this phrase in Scripture are talking to God, not using God’s name as an exclamatory (like we would use the words Wow! or Cool!) without giving Him any thought at all.

Second, this phrase is used reverently and worshipfully. It is used to honor God and the fullness of His nature and character, not, as you mentioned, to exclaim over kittens or some other paltry earthly happening.

Third, this phrase is used in the context of prayer, much the same way we would reverently address God in prayer with phrases like “Dear Lord” or “Heavenly Father”.

(One more thing that might be of interest to my fellow grammar nerds: When you see the phrase in Scripture, it always starts with “O”. When you see it written in the common exclamatory usage, it always starts with “Oh”. That’s not an accident. It’s meant to set apart the two discrete usages. Read more here.)

So the first scenario I can think of in which saying “O my God” would not be taking God’s name in vain would be things like: if you are quoting one of these passages, singing a worship song that either quotes one of these passages or uses the phrase in the same way in which it’s used in these passages, or if your pastor uses this phrase in his sermon or prayer in the same way in which it is used in Scripture.

The second scenario is similar: If you feel comfortable using this phrase in your own private prayer time by using it in the same way in which it’s used in Scripture – speaking directly, reverently, and worshipfully to God in prayer – there’s nothing sinful or unbiblical about that.

I would discourage the use of this phrase in public prayer, though, because it could confuse the people who hear it, causing them to think you’re breaking the third Commandment even if you aren’t. Additionally, if they hear you using that phrase in prayer with no explanation they may think you’re using it in the common (OMG!) way and assume that since you’re using it in prayer it’s OK for them to use that phrase in any situation. Sadly, most people are probably not familiar with the proper, reverent way this beautiful phrase is used in Scripture.

For more on this topic, check out Cussing, Profanity, and OMG on A Word Fitly Spoken.

If you have a question about: a Bible passage, an aspect of theology, a current issue in Christianity, or how to biblically handle a family, life, or church situation, comment below (I’ll hold all questions in queue {unpublished} for a future edition of The Mailbag) or send me an e-mail or private message. If your question is chosen for publication, your anonymity will be protected.

Complementarianism, Mailbag

The Mailbag: “What’s a Woman to Do?” Potpourri

February 4, 2019May 14, 2024 Michelle Lesley

Welcome to another “potpourri” edition of The Mailbag, where I give short(er) answers to several questions rather than a long answer to one question. I also like to take the opportunity in these potpourri editions to let new readers know about my comments/e-mail/messages policy. I’m not able to respond individually to most e-mails and messages, so here are some helpful hints for getting your questions answered more quickly. Remember, the search bar can be a helpful tool!

In these potpourri editions of The Mailbag, I’d also like to address the three questions I’m most commonly asked:

“Do you know anything about [Christian pastor/teacher/author] or his/her materials? Is he/she doctrinally sound?”

Try these links:
Popular False Teachers / Recommended Bible Teachers / search bar
Is She a False Teacher? 7 Steps to Figuring It Out on Your Own
(Do keep bringing me names, though. If I get enough questions about a particular teacher, I’ll probably write an article on her.)

“Can you recommend a good women’s Bible study?”

No. Here’s why:
The Mailbag: Can you recommend a good Bible study for women/teens/kids?
The Mailbag: “We need to stop relying on canned studies,” doesn’t mean, “We need to rely on doctrinally sound canned studies.”.

“You shouldn’t be warning against [popular false teacher] for [X,Y,Z] reason!”

Answering the Opposition- Responses to the Most Frequently Raised Discernment Objections

It’s ladies night!…er…day…or whatever. I’ve accumulated several questions that have to do with women’s roles in the church and home, so that’s the theme of today’s Mailbag. If you have similar questions, you might find my article Rock Your Role FAQs to be helpful.

Is it biblical for women to serve as children’s ministry leaders or directors in the church?

It could be, depending on the situation. (You should not bear the title Children’s “Pastor,” though. Biblically, women are not pastors so carrying that title would be dishonest and misleading.)

It is perfectly biblical for women to teach and lead children in the church setting. (And when I say “children”, I mean birth to about age 12. I’ve addressed women teaching youth/teens here, #13.) The biblical prohibition is against teaching and holding authority over men in the church. Male children are not men.

The potential 1 Timothy 2:12 issue is not with teaching and leading children or supervising other women who teach children. The issue at play is whether or not you’ll be holding unbiblical authority over any men who work or volunteer in the children’s department as Sunday school teachers, Awana leaders, nursery workers, etc. And that’s something that’s got to be examined on a case by case basis. It could be completely biblical for you to serve as a children’s director in one church but not in another simply due to circumstances of the environment.

Does your church only have women working in the children’s department? Is there an associate pastor or elder over you that handles any issues of authority? Would you have to train, evaluate, or correct male volunteers? What kinds of things would male volunteers need to come to you about? These and other questions all need to be carefully considered by your pastor, elders, your husband, and you.

Generally speaking, it is biblically OK for a woman to serve as children’s ministry leaders as long as that position, in that particular church, does not require her to instruct men in the Scriptures or hold unbiblical authority over men.

My husband is a new Christian (Praise the Lord!). I was raised in church and have a firm foundation in the Word, but unfortunately he was not blessed with such an upbringing. When we study the Bible together at home, how can I handle his lack of knowledge in a Godly way? I know what the Bible says about women not teaching men, and I strongly desire to be obedient to God’s Word. I’m just a little confused about what that looks like in this situation.

I rejoice with you over your husband’s salvation! This is a great question that’s probably on the minds of many godly women.

First, I think we might need to review a little bit of “what the Bible says about women not teaching men.” When Scripture prohibits women from teaching or holding authority over men, it does so in a specific setting: the gathered body of Believers (the church – You may want to go back over my article Jill in the Pulpit.). You are talking about helping your newly saved husband privately, at home. That’s different, and it is not included in the 1 Timothy 2:12 prohibition.

At home, between the two of you, the only issue is whether you’re submitting to him and respecting him. If your husband wants you to explain things to him from Scripture and you do that in a loving, kind, and submissive way, there’s absolutely no biblical problem with that. (It’s also important that you know the correct answers to his questions and can handle Scripture rightly. If not, study it together or ask your Sunday School teacher, pastor, etc., for help.)

In Scripture, we see Priscilla and her husband Aquila taking Apollos aside privately (likely in their home) and helping him understand “the way of God more accurately.” And Paul commends Priscilla in “the great thank you list” of Romans 16. She would not have been mentioned in a positive light in Acts nor commended by Paul in Romans if she had been sinning by helping Apollos. And if she wasn’t sinning by helping Apollos, who wasn’t even her husband (again, recalling that this was a private conversation, not teaching in the church), it would not make sense that it would have been wrong for her, or any other woman to help her own husband.

In 1 Peter 3 and 1 Corinthians 7 we see that a woman can be instrumental in bringing her unsaved husband to Christ. Why, then, would she not – privately, at his own request – continue to answer his questions, explain things, or suggest passages of Scripture for him to read after he got saved?

It would be beneficial to your husband for him to begin learning from godly men, not because it’s wrong for you to help him learn, but because other men can help him learn his role as a Christian man and how to handle things men go through better than a woman – even his wife – can. It might be helpful to your husband for you to suggest good books by doctrinally sound men for him to read and good preaching and podcasts to listen to (see some of my favorites in the sidebar to your left). He would probably also benefit tremendously from getting involved with a men’s group or Bible study at church, or having a godly older man disciple him.

What a blessing that God has given your husband a knowledgeable, godly wife who can help him!

I teach the Bible to women and young people in the home of a Christian sister. Frequently, her husband brings his Bible and sits in on the group. I usually just ignore the fact that he’s in there and focus on the youth, because, technically, that’s who I’m there to teach. I feel uncomfortable with him there because I agree with the Bible that I’m not supposed to be teaching men, but I also feel uncomfortable asking him to leave his own den. What do you recommend in this case?

It’s a bit of a sticky situation, but more because of etiquette and logistics than because of Scripture. Let’s explore a few different aspects of this situation.

✢ Is the husband saved? If he’s unsaved, the dilemma stops here. He’s not part of the church (the universal body of Believers), he’s an outsider observing Christians, and the things of God are folly to him. He’s not even capable of understanding Christian teaching on a spiritual level, so you’re not teaching him. At best, he’s absorbing enough of the gospel to eventually lead him to Christ. That would fall under the category of evangelism, and Scripture doesn’t prohibit women from sharing the gospel with men. (See #11 here)

✢ Take into consideration that different people sometimes have different ideas about etiquette and social interactions. Whether or not he’s saved, it’s possible the husband is sitting in on the group because he feels, as the host, it would be rude of him not to. By talking with him about your discomfort with his presence, you might actually be letting him off the hook when there are other things he’d rather be doing.

But from here on out, we’ll assume the husband is saved and doesn’t fully understand that women aren’t to teach men in the gathered body of Believers.

✢ You mentioned that you are teaching “women and young people”/”youth”. I’m inferring from that phraseology that this group of “young people/youth” is a co-ed group in their teens. If I’m correct about that (and maybe I’m not), this could be part of the issue depending on the age of the kids in the group. First, of all, if the males in this group are in their late teens to early 20s or older, you really don’t have a leg to stand on. You’re teaching men (even if they are young men), so that needs to stop. But this could also be a contributing factor to why the husband is coming to the study, especially if he is a younger man. If he sees you teaching 18 year old young men and he’s 25, he probably doesn’t see much difference between those young men and himself and assumes he’s welcome to attend. There’s no hard and fast biblical command about it, but I usually recommend women stop teaching boys around the time they start middle school (12ish). I’ve explained more here, #13.

✢ It’s possible the husband only has a partial understanding of the applicable Scriptures here. Perhaps he thinks Scripture only says women can’t be pastors or that as long as you’re outside the four walls of the church building you can teach men. Maybe you and his wife can pull him aside privately after the meeting or at another time and explain a little bit more about what Scripture says, your desire to obey it, your discomfort with him there, and your discomfort with asking him to leave.

✢ You know the husband and his wife better than I do. Would it work better to explain things to the wife and ask her to talk to him? Or possibly for you and your husband to talk to him and his wife together? It might also be beneficial for you to set up a meeting with your pastor and get some wise counsel from him on how to proceed.

✢ Enlist the aid of your husband and/or some other godly men at church. They could invite this fellow to join them during your class time for a men’s Bible study, bowling, a movie, dinner, watching the game on TV, or whatever. Maybe the husband just needs some friends or a better offer! :0)

✢ If you’ve talked to the husband and he understands what Scripture says, and your dilemma, and he refuses to refrain from attending the class, it’s time to move the class meeting to another location – perhaps your house, the church, or the home of someone else in the group. If it gets to this point, things have moved beyond whether or not you’re teaching a man. Now he’s intentionally being a stumbling block to a sister in Christ (which, if you belong to the same church, actually requires church discipline). He is sinning and he causing you to sin against your conscience. Scripture says if something causes you to sin, remove it. Since you can’t remove him from his house, you’ll have to remove yourself from his house.

✢ Finally, along the lines of removing things from your life that cause you to sin, if you’ve tried every possible way of working things out and you’re still going to be in a situation where you’re sinning against your conscience, step down from teaching. As much as you might want to, you do not have to teach that class. And it’s far better to give up a “want” and not sin than to keep doing a “want” and sin. God takes sin very seriously, and we should, too.

I’ve tried to cover a range of possibilities and solutions, and some of them may sound extreme, but most of the time situations like this among friends, and especially among church family, can be resolved with a simple, loving conversation. Try talking to him about it, and you’ll most likely be able to work it out.

Mailbag

The Mailbag: My husband wants to stay at an unbiblical church.

January 28, 2019June 10, 2024 Michelle Lesley

There are unbiblical things happening in my church. I want to leave and find a better church. My husband wants to stay. Do I submit to him and stay at this church or go against his wishes and find another church to join by myself?

I receive some variation of this question several times a year, which absolutely breaks my heart. Normal, everyday disagreements in marriage are hard enough, but when it’s something this important that involves such a huge part of your life, it can be excruciating.

It’s also an impossible question for me to answer a) since I’m so far removed from the situation, and b) because every situation is different. All I can do is ask some questions and provide some resources that may help as you make your decision.

◊ Is the issue at your church actually unbiblical? Just because you don’t like something (the genre of music, that women wear pants to this church, that there are/aren’t age-segregated activities, etc.) doesn’t necessarily mean it’s unbiblical. Search the Scriptures. Is what is happening at your church clearly violating a chapter and verse, rightly handled, in context passage of Scripture?

◊ Are you fairly certain your husband is saved? Does he usually make godly decisions as he leads your family? The answers to these questions may give you some insight into your husband’s perspective on this church and help you understand his side of things better.

◊ Is this a “We must obey God rather than men” situation? Carefully examine that passage. Scripture has always been clear that we are to obey those in authority over us, and the apostles knew it. The only reason they disobeyed the authorities is because the authorities commanded them to do something that clearly conflicted with God’s Word. Is that the situation you’re in at this church? If not, Scripture is clear that you’re to submit to your husband.

◊ Don’t underestimate how greatly your submission could impact your husband. Scripture says it can make such an impression that God can even use it as a tool to draw unsaved husbands to Himself for salvation. If submission can soften an unsaved man’s heart toward salvation, perhaps it could soften your husband’s heart toward finding a better church.

◊ Is it possible that in obeying God’s instruction to submit to your husband in this circumstance God is keeping you in this church in order to give you an opportunity to serve Him by bringing biblical truth to bear on the unbiblical situation (in a godly way, of course)? Sometimes the solution to a problem at church is not to cut and run, but to roll up your sleeves and get to work.

◊ Submitting to your husband doesn’t mean you can’t pray for him and the situation at church. You should definitely be praying that your husband is making the right decision and that God will change his heart and mind if not. You should also be praying that you would have the right heart in this situation, praying for your children if they are also in the church, and praying that God would change the situation at church. Pray fervently about everything.

◊ Have you and your husband actually sat down and talked this through? If not, set aside some uninterrupted time in a pleasant environment, and carefully, prayerfully, and objectively (no histrionics) explain – citing clear Scripture – what is bothering you about the church. And then listen to what your husband has to say in response. If he is anything like my husband, he’ll probably bring up at least one good point you hadn’t thought about, but need to.

◊ Would it be helpful to bring in a third party to bounce the situation off of? Maybe a pastor friend you both trust, a spiritually mature couple you’re friends with, your parents or in laws, even a biblical counselor? Sometimes a fresh, objective set of eyes and ears can help.

◊ Is there a solution you and your husband can work out besides the two options of you staying or leaving? Do some brainstorming. Is the unbiblical situation at your church self-contained enough that you could arrange your attendance habits in order to avoid it? (For example: The women’s ministry only offers classes using materials by false teachers. Solution: You don’t have to attend those classes. Or, you could volunteer to teach a class that studies a book of the Bible. The “contemporary” service at your church uses Bethel and Hillsong music. Solution: Maybe your husband would compromise and go to the “traditional” service with you that only uses hymns.) Maybe your husband works a lot of Sundays and would be OK with you going to another church on those Sundays. Perhaps the two of you could reach a compromise of going to the doctrinally sound church you like every other Sunday, and the old church the rest of the time. What about a trade off? “If you’ll switch to this new church for me, I’ll do ____ for you.” Think outside the box, ask God for wisdom, discuss it with your husband, and see what you can come up with.

◊ Keep the perspective that God is using this situation in your life (your husband’s too) for his glory and your good. Maybe God will use this situation to grow your trust in Him, to strengthen your prayer life, to give you more practice in submitting to your husband, or to train you in the Scriptures. Whatever His purposes, He is doing it for a good reason. He loves you. He hasn’t forgotten you. He hasn’t abandoned you. He’ll bring you through this.

Conflict over church can be rough on a marriage, and the solution is not always easy. Pray without ceasing, obey God’s Word, seek godly counsel, and trust God to lead you.

Mailbag

The Mailbag: Potpourri (Todd Friel on Rick Warren, Enneagram, Should I stay or should I go?…)

January 21, 2019July 15, 2019 Michelle Lesley

Do you have any thoughts on Todd Friel’s latest comment that Rick Warren is not a heretic?

Yes, I’m a faithful listener of Wretched Radio, and I did hear that episode. (You can listen to the specific remarks this reader is referencing here starting around the 5:25 mark.)

I’d like to start by saying that I don’t speak for Todd, so if this is of great concern to you, I would recommend contacting Todd directly and getting a “straight from the horse’s mouth” response from him.

The following is what I understood Todd’s remarks to mean:

I believe Todd was using a more classical theological definition of heresy used by many pastors and theologians (and which I agree with), which a lot of people are unaware of these days because the term “heresy” is tossed about so haphazardly (I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it myself). In this definition, real heresy is narrowly focused. It has only to do with the basic doctrines of salvation. In other words, the things you have to believe to be a Christian, and the things you can’t believe to be a Christian.

For example, T.D. Jakes is a heretic for two reasons: a) he is a modalist, a classic heresy which denies the biblical nature of the Trinity, and b) he preaches Word of Faith heresy – “another gospel” as described in Galatians 1:6-9.

Rick Warren, on the other hand, is someone I would categorize as a “false teacher” (again, I cannot speak for Todd, so I don’t know if he would use that label, but I think he would agree with the remainder of this paragraph). He says and does a lot of unbiblical things which he needs to stop and repent of, and nobody should be following him, but he does not preach or claim to believe anything (to my knowledge anyway) that goes against the basic doctrines of salvation. If you sat him down and talked to him, he would affirm the biblical doctrine of the Trinity, the deity of Christ, that Christ is the only way of salvation, etc.

I think the confusion is that the classical definition of heresy differentiates between true heretics and false teachers, but many Christians don’t seem to understand that because the terms “heretic” and “false teacher” are often used interchangeably. This is a definitional thing. Todd is not saying Rick Warren is a doctrinally sound pastor you should be following. He’s made that abundantly clear on a number of occasions.

My friend Samuel had a great question on Twitter recently:

In light of Titus 1:13, where Paul commands Titus to rebuke false teachers SHARPLY, how should pastors maintain a gentle character while frankly, boldly, sharply rebuking false teaching, like Jesus did with the Pharisees?

I've been thinking about this, and I need your help!

— Samuel Sey (@SlowToWrite) December 20, 2018

This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
Titus 1:13

It’s a great passage with a lot to consider. My thoughts:

1. Look at the rest of 13: “that they may be sound in the faith”. That’s the goal of the sharp rebuke- to bring them out of false doctrine and restore them to sound doctrine. That goal is what should inform the “sharpness” of the rebuke as well as the tone.

2. I think the “sharpness” has more to do with the urgency and immovability of the content of the message you’re conveying, and gentleness, kindness, etc., have more to do with the way (tone) in which you convey it.

3. Notice the word “For” at the beginning of v. 10. It draws our attention back to v. 5-9, the qualifications for elders. In other words, “Elders need to have these qualities (5-9) because of the need to silence and sharply rebuke these false teachers (10-16).” Verses 7-8 call for an elder not to be “arrogant…quick-tempered…violent…but…self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.” Those qualities should govern how an elder gives a sharp rebuke.

4. I totally agree [I think someone else in the Twitter discussion mentioned this] that we should follow Christ’s example in Matthew 23, but we need to keep in mind that a culturally appropriate sharp rebuke in the first century Middle East might not be exactly the same as a culturally appropriate sharp rebuke in 21st century America. We convey the same message, but in a different way.

What is an Enneagram? A church in my area is offering a Bible study on it. Is it biblical?

The Enneagram is basically a tool that purports to help you discover which of nine fundamental personality types you are in order to maximize your strengths and grow in areas in which you are weak.

Is it biblical? There are a lot of different opinions and information out there, so it depends on who you ask. Some would say it’s merely a tool that helps identify less Christlike areas of your personality so you can be aware of, and strive to be more obedient in, those areas of weakness. Others grab on to the Enneagram and dive headfirst into the New Age mysticism that seems to be lurking in all its nooks and crannies.

I would just ask – have you ever read a passage of Scripture that says we need to analyze our personalities – using any tool, for any reason? No, you haven’t. And that’s the main reason I would say you don’t need the Enneagram or any other personality evaluation tool. Just like Christians for the past 2000 years haven’t needed them.

God gives us everything we need for life and godliness in the Bible. Do you tend to be too much of a people pleaser? That’s called fear of man. It’s in the Bible. Too harsh with others? You’re being unkind. It’s in the Bible. Struggle with anxiety? You’re not trusting God. It’s in the Bible.

A lot of people don’t want to hear this again and again because it’s not shiny and new, popular and fun like the Enneagram, personality tests, or internet quizzes (plus it takes longer and involves hard, spiritual work), but we don’t need to be looking for the latest evangelical fad to microwave us into spiritual maturity. We need the slow, deep, plodding work of studying our Bibles, sitting under good preaching and teaching at church, being discipled by older, wiser brothers and sisters in Christ, praying for wisdom, and repenting of sin.

If I were considering using the Enneagram, here’s what I would ask myself:

Why would I rather use the Enneagram – which isn’t mentioned or suggested anywhere in Scripture and has some sketchy spiritual elements to it – than use the methods (prayer, Bible study, discipleship, etc.) I know God has prescribed in Scripture?

For more information on the Enneagram here are some good resources:

Enneagram at Berean Research

Christian Answers for the New Age (Marcia posts great information on her Facebook page. You may have to scroll a bit or ask her to find the specific topic you’re looking for. Here’s something on the Enneagram I happened to find near the top of her feed today.)

Girl What’s Your Number? The Enneagram Episode at Sheologians

The New Age & Quack Spirituality Origins of the Enneagram with Marcia Montenegro and Steve Kozar

Can you recommend a good resource on _____ [a very specific relationship issue]?

There are a lot of wonderful books and other materials out there that can help us deal with certain relational issues, and when I’m aware of those resources I try to recommend them if I think they would help. I am all for reading and learning from helpful, doctrinally sound materials.

But the more specific and interpersonal the issue is, the less helpful resources are, because those resources are general by nature and can’t address every conceivable scenario, including yours. Sometimes you don’t need to read a book, you need to have a conversation with the other person(s) involved in the issue.

For example, if Sally is constantly gossiping about you to other people at church, you don’t need to read a book on gossip or relationships between church members. You need to go to Sally and ask why she’s saying these things. You might need to set the record straight about your behavior that she’s gossiping about. You might have received a false report that she’s gossiping about you. You might need to rebuke her and proceed to the next step of church discipline. But you won’t know any of those things unless you sit down and talk to her. And you’re not going to find those answers in a book.

In other situations, getting the wise counsel of a godly older sister in your church, or setting up an appointment with your pastor for counseling can be much more helpful than simply reading a book. These people know you and care about you. They’re available to help you and answer your questions. They can walk through the changing ups and downs of the situation with you over time. You can’t get all of that from a book.

Materials and resources are great and can be very helpful, but not in every situation.

I still meet with my ladies Bible study group, but they continue to choose very questionable material. Teachers that you have warned against as false and I agree with you. I have voiced my concerns to them over and over and at this point I am just starting to sound like a broken record. My question is, do I still participate and try my level best to help them discern or do I just leave the group?

In my article The Mailbag: Should I attend the “Bible” study to correct false doctrine? I addressed the question, “Should I attend a study using a false teacher’s materials in order to correct false doctrine, or should I decline to attend the study due to the unbiblical materials they’re using?”

Either option can be perfectly biblical depending on the situation and the people involved. This reader chose to go the former route, which brings up an additional question: If I join this group and they continue to teach false doctrine via materials by false teachers despite my correction, how long do I hang in there and continue to correct?

Since every situation is different, I can’t give a hard and fast answer to that. I would reiterate the counsel I gave in the previous article about praying for wisdom and discussing it with your husband and your pastor. If, in these discussions, you and your husband decide that, in addition to the women’s group, there are sufficient biblical reasons to look for another church, you may want to hang in there until you move to a new church.

If you decide to leave the group, another natural time to make the break would be when they finish the book they’re currently using and before they begin a new book.

If the question is less, “When should I leave?” and more, “Is it biblical to leave the group when it’s obvious they aren’t going to listen to biblical rebuke and sound doctrine?” the answer is yes, and practically the whole Bible is precedent for this.

Think back over the Scriptures. What is the Bible’s general posture and response to people – particularly God’s people – who have been repeatedly warned about their sin or presented with biblical truth, and choose to continue in that sin or ignore that truth (as this group seems to be acting toward the reader)?

Think about God’s repeated warnings to Old Testament Israel about their sins of idolatry and syncretism (which are basically what importing false doctrine into a church is). Even God didn’t hang in there continuing to warn them forever. What was His eventual response to them? He used pagan nations to conquer them and send them into exile.

Passages like these also help us see the New Testament’s take on moving on when sound doctrine is rejected:

As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Titus 3:10-11 (For more on false doctrine as “division”, see Romans 16:17-18, Jude 18-19.)

And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.
Mark 6:11 (see verses 7-13 for context)

Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
Matthew 7:6

Do you have scriptural grounds to leave if a group rejects biblical correction of their false doctrine? Yes. When should you leave? You’ll have to ask God to give you the wisdom to decide.