Mailbag – Page 17 – Michelle Lesley

Originally published August 19, 2019

Can unforgiveness cause me to lose my salvation?

Forgiving (or refusing to forgive) others as it relates to our salvation is such an important issue. I’m so glad you asked!

Let’s break this question down a bit.

Can you lose your salvation?

The first thing we need to tackle is whether or not someone whom Christ has genuinely saved can lose her salvation – for unforgiveness or any other reason. And the answer to that question is no.

Why? The short answer is that if God saves someone, and that person can subsequently “unsave” herself, that makes her more powerful than God, which, as we know, can’t happen. You can’t save yourself, and you can’t unsave yourself. Salvation is all of God.

You can’t save yourself, and you can’t unsave yourself. Salvation is all of God.
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When God saves you, you are His new creation in Christ. You can’t “uncreate” your new spiritual life any more than you can “uncreate” your body, or a tree, or a planet. You can kill or do damage to those things, but you cannot reverse God’s creative process. To use another example, oh so relevant to today, God created you female. You can mutilate your body til kingdom come trying to appear male, but that will not change the fact that at your genetic level – the very essence of your being – you are female. And you can’t undo that because God created you that way, and you’re not more powerful than God. If you can’t even change God’s creation of your physical body, how in the world can you change God’s creation of your spiritual being?

The moment God saves you, He forgives all your sins, past, present, and future, and robes you in the righteousness of Christ.
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In addition to the fact that you can’t uncreate the new creature God has created you to be, you need to remember that the moment God saves you, He forgives all your sins, past, present, and future, and robes you in the righteousness of Christ. That swear word you’re going to say next week? Already forgiven. That lie you’re going to tell five years from now? Already forgiven. And if you decide to commit the sin of refusing to forgive someone, that sin has already been forgiven too. (So since all our sins are already forgiven, we can just commit as much sin as we want and we don’t have to worry about it, right? Wrong.) We still need to confess those sins to God and be cleansed from them because they disrupt our fellowship with God, but in His accounting office, that sin debt has already been marked “paid in full”.

Furthermore, Jesus tells us plainly that if He’s got you, He’s got you:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

No one. That includes you and your sin. The power of your sin is not greater than God’s power to forgive that sin.

The power of your sin is not greater than God’s power to forgive that sin.
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They will never perish. To say that a person about which Jesus Himself has said, “I give them eternal life,” can lose her salvation is to call Jesus a liar. He says that person “will never perish.” End of story.

Still not convinced that someone whom Christ has genuinely saved can’t lose her salvation? Try these passages on for size.

Now the reason it can look to us like someone can lose her salvation comes from two places: experience and misunderstanding the Bible.

The reason it can look to us like someone can lose her salvation comes from two places: experience and misunderstanding the Bible.
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Experience:
It’s happened plenty of times in the past, but in the last few weeks, we’ve seen two high profile evangelicals “walk away from the faith,”: Joshua Harris and Marty Sampson. Maybe you know someone personally – a friend, a loved one, even a pastor – who gave every appearance of being a Christian and then suddenly left Christianity, and the church, behind.

How does this compute when the Bible teaches that genuinely born again Christians cannot lose their salvation? Well, we need to remember something else the Bible teaches that’s very important:

Not everyone who claims to be a Christian actually is one.

Some people consciously know they’re not really saved and are just trying to pull the wool over the eyes of others. But many (my guess is “most” – these days there’s not a lot of social cachet in calling yourself a Christian) are deceived into believing they’re saved. Maybe they heard some sort of unbiblical gospel presentation and have put their faith in a decision they made in response. Maybe they just assume they’re saved because they’re good church-going people and their church doesn’t teach them otherwise. Who knows? It could be a lot of things. But we know for sure that there are many people who call themselves Christians and believe they are Christians who aren’t. Why? Because the Bible says so:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:21-23

“Many will say”…False converts are common, not few and far between. And it’s not just your average Joe or Jane in the pew, either. People who “prophesy…cast out demons…do mighty works” under the auspices of Christianity? They’re pastors, elders, deacons, Bible study teachers, seminary professors, “Christian” authors, evangelical celebrities. And Christ does not know them, because they don’t know Him. They talk the talk, and might even look like they walk the walk, but they’ve never truly believed the biblical gospel, repented of their sin, and trusted the Jesus of Scripture to save them. First John 2:18-19 puts it this way:

Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.

People whom Jesus has genuinely saved may fall into sin for a season, but they do not fall away from the faith. Those who leave the faith were never part of it in the first place, despite appearances or their claims to the contrary. It might be difficult, but this is one of those occasions when we have to believe what Scripture says over what we can see.

Those who leave the faith were never part of it in the first place, despite appearances or their claims to the contrary.
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Jesus also tells us in the parable of the sower that there will be be “rocky ground” folks who will appear to be Christians, but because they have no root, they “endure for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.” Jesus follows up this parable with the parable of the wheat and tares which further drives home His point that there will be impostors in the visible church.

So even though we observe people who appear to be Christians “falling away from the faith,” through unforgiveness or any other sin, we know that what’s really happening is that a lost person got tired of pretending to be saved and went back to being a lost person. Second Peter 2:22 puts it this way:

What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

If Christ has never fundamentally changed your spiritual nature from dog or pig into a new creature in Christ, you’re still a dog or a pig. And even if you manage to clean up on the outside you’ll eventually return to the vomit of being a dog and the mud of being a pig because that’s your nature.

Misunderstood Scripture
There are passages in the Bible that, when misunderstood, when taken out of their immediate context, or when taken out of the overall context of Scripture can seem to teach that a person can lose her salvation. But as we’ve seen, there are way too many rightly handled, in context passages of Scripture that refute that idea.

Can you lose your salvation by refusing to forgive someone?

You mentioned in your original question that you believe unforgiveness can cause someone to lose her salvation because, “It is so clear in so many ways in Scripture, even parables that Jesus told.” But, you did not mention any of the Scriptures you think teach this. My guess is that one of the Scriptures you’re thinking of is Matthew 6:14-15:

For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

In context, we can see that these two verses come at the end of the Lord’s Prayer. In verse 12, Jesus has just taught us to pray that God would “forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors,” and He’s giving us a little addendum on this in 14-15.

Remember, even though all our sins from birth to death were forgiven at the moment of our salvation, we still need to confess our sins in prayer and ask God to cleanse us from our wrongdoing to bring us back into right fellowship with Him. But if you’re willfully in the middle of committing the sin of unforgiveness against someone, you’re still actively sinning. You haven’t turned from that sin in order to be cleansed. You’re essentially rolling around in the mud and asking God to cleanse you while you have no intention of getting out of the mud. How is that supposed to work? It doesn’t make any sense. If you want to get cleaned up (“forgiven”), you have to get out of the mud (stop committing the sin of unforgiveness – “forgive”). Otherwise, you’re asking God to restore the fellowship you’re still actively damaging with your sin.

Another passage you might be thinking of is the parable of the unforgiving servant. The takeaway from this passage is not that God will rescind the salvation of Christians who commit the sin of unforgiveness. This passage doesn’t say that and we already know that idea conflicts with what Scripture teaches about the security of the Believer.

The takeaway from this passage is that God has forgiven us a sin debt that is incomprehensible. Knowing and having experienced that forgiveness, how could we not forgive some paltry little sin another human commits against us? First John 4:19 says, “We love because He first loved us,” and the way He loved us was to forgive us our sin. So we also forgive because He first forgave us. And if we can giddily and unrepentantly harbor unforgiveness in our hearts against someone else, we’d better start testing ourselves against Scripture to see if we’re really in the faith. Because that kind of unforgiveness is not the fruit of a redeemed life, it’s the fruit of someone who’s unsaved.

No, a genuinely regenerated Christian cannot lose her salvation by committing the sin of unforgiveness. But if she is genuinely regenerated, she will repent of that sin and forgive.

A genuinely regenerated Christian cannot lose her salvation by committing the sin of unforgiveness. But if she *is* genuinely regenerated, she will repent of that sin and forgive.
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Additional Resources:

Walking Away from Faith? at A Word Fitly Spoken Podcast

The Mailbag: Must I reconcile with my abusive ex-husband?

Forgiving Like Kings and Servants

You Can’t Love Jesus with a Heart Full of Hate: 7 Reasons to Love and Forgive Your Enemies

Am I Really Saved? A 1 John Check Up

If you have a question about: a Bible passage, an aspect of theology, a current issue in Christianity, or how to biblically handle a family, life, or church situation, comment below (I’ll hold all questions in queue {unpublished} for a future edition of The Mailbag) or send me an e-mail or private message. If your question is chosen for publication, your anonymity will be protected.

Mailbag, Parenting

The Mailbag: Potpourri (Rescinding a recommendation… Women at the Last Supper… Consistent discipline)

May 30, 2023May 29, 2023 Michelle Lesley

Welcome to another “potpourri” edition of The Mailbag, where I give short(er) answers to several questions rather than a long answer to one question.

I like to take the opportunity in these potpourri editions to let new readers know about my comments/e-mail/messages policy. I’m not able to respond individually to most e-mails and messages, so here are some helpful hints for getting your questions answered more quickly. Remember, the search bar (at the very bottom of each page) can be a helpful tool!

Or maybe I answered your question already? Check out my article The Mailbag: Top 10 FAQs to see if your question has been answered and to get some helpful resources.

Our women’s ministry team recently asked all of us Bible study teachers to promote the study they have chosen, and I personally recommended it to the women in my class. I told them “I don’t know anything about the author and haven’t read the study, but I trust the women’s ministry team and recommend you participate.” That afternoon I began researching her and discovered she was a woman pastor. I immediately contacted the women’s coordinator and shared my concerns.

I feel TERRIBLE that I have recommended a woman whose life choices make her a stumbling block to the gals I dearly love and have taught for years. My first instinct is to send my students only an email rescinding my recommendation and warning them that the author routinely preaches in her local church. I am torn between protecting them from a very beguiling threat and the implications a warning has for exposing the women’s ministry team. LESSON LEARNED for future recommendations, but for now, what is my Biblical obligation/priority?

That’s a difficult spot to be in. I’ve been there myself, having passed along a recommendation from someone I thought was discerning and trustworthy, only to find out later that she was not.

Here’s what I would suggest:

If you haven’t already, get alone with the Lord in prayer and repent of your carelessness. There is grace, mercy, and forgiveness awaiting you.
Write out a carefully, kindly, and wisely worded email to your class apologizing for your carelessness and explaining why you need to rescind your recommendation. Support everything you say with Scripture. (If you think it would be helpful, you may wish to include a link to this article of mine.) Don’t hit “send” yet.
Talk to your pastor before you do anything else. Explain the situation, plead with him to cancel the study, tell him (don’t ask him) your conscience demands that you send an email to your class rescinding your recommendation of the study, and offer to show it to him if he’d like to see it.
I pray your pastor will cancel the study. I really do. That will take the pressure off of you. You will still need to apologize to your class and explain why you agree with the pastor’s decision to cancel the study. Unfortunately, in situations like this, the pastor almost always backs up the study and the women’s director, not the discerning Christian who comes to him with concerns.
If your pastor affirms the study and the women’s ministry leader, express your disappointment calmly and politely, and reiterate that you must still send the email. Go to the women’s ministry leader, and as a gesture of courtesy, explain that you’ll be sending an email to your class rescinding your recommendation. Then, send the email.
Immediately begin looking for a new, doctrinally sound church. Women who are “pastors” and/or preach to men are false teachers. They preach with their behavior, “I don’t like this command of Scripture, so I’m not going to obey it. If there’s a command of Scripture you don’t like, you don’t have to obey it either.”. If your pastor is so doctrinally ignorant or unsound that he affirms this sin and false teaching, you don’t need to be sitting under his teaching and leadership.

What are the Scripture verses that back up the teachings that women were at the last supper? I know that this is something I’ve heard before, yet now my grandson is asking me about it because that’s what he learned in school.

There aren’t any. In fact, I’ve never heard anyone claim that any person – man or woman – other than Jesus and the twelve disciples were in attendance at the Last Supper.

The Matthew account says Jesus “reclined at table with the twelve.”
The Mark account says Jesus “came with the twelve. And as they were reclining at table and eating…”
The Luke account says Jesus “reclined at table, and the apostles with him.”
The John account focuses more on Jesus’ teaching at and after the supper than the actual supper itself, but even John says, “During supper” (v.2) Jesus “began to wash the disciples’ feet…” (v.5)

When you consider all four of the gospel accounts together, there is absolutely no argument to be made that anyone was present at the Last Supper besides Jesus and the twelve. There were no women among the twelve. There were no women apostles. Therefore, no women were at the Last Supper.

I’m guessing what happened is that somebody – perhaps Catholicism, in order to elevate Mary, or perhaps feminists, in order to make Jesus seem like an egalitarian – took a mention of “disciples” (without “the twelve” in front of it) from one of these passages and decided that could mean any follower of Jesus he or she wanted it to mean (most likely Mary, the mother of Jesus, or Mary Magdalene).

If your grandson is asking questions like this, take him to Scripture and teach him how to be a good Berean. Show him how to look up the passages in question and compare what he’s being taught to what the Bible actually says.

And if you have a relationship with his parents that allows you to express your concerns about what he’s being taught at school, express them (kindly, yet seriously, taking care not to be overbearing). I shudder to think about all the unbiblical things that school is indoctrinating your grandson with that he’s not asking you about.

I am a Christian mom, and I rarely accept back talk from my son. I always call it out, and usually give him some kind of discipline, but it doesn’t seem to improve things. Is there a secret formula?😃

That’s something a lot of moms deal with, and I know it’s got to be frustrating. Good for you for looking for ways to make your discipline more effective!

If what you’re doing isn’t working, your discipline either isn’t severe enough or isn’t consistent enough, or both. Discipline has to hurt in order to be effective.

A good example of the importance of consistency is an experiment I learned about when I was a psychology major back in the Stone Age. We were studying conditioning (training a subject in a behavior), and a lot of the studies we looked at had to do with training rats to push a lever for a pellet of food. Some rats got a pellet every time they pushed the lever. Some never got a pellet. Some got a pellet sometimes. Those were the rats who pushed the lever the most because they never knew when they would be rewarded with food or “punished” with none.

It’s the same with inconsistent discipline. You’re actually increasing the undesired behavior by being inconsistent because your child never knows whether that bad behavior is going to be rewarded, ignored, or punished. This is also part of what Ephesians 6:4 is talking about when it says not to exasperate your children.

Especially with boys, Dad needs to be involved. Your son needs to know that if he doesn’t respond to your discipline, Dad is going to step in and take over. The two of you should sit down, talk this through, and put a plan in place for how to work this out in various situations.

Also helpful would be to find a couple in your church whose children are well behaved and respectful and ask them to disciple you and your husband in this area.

Get those things going, and you’ll see improvement.

Mailbag, Prayer

The Mailbag: Potpourri (“Prayers” from pagans… “Good” pride… Laying on of hands)

May 16, 2023May 15, 2023 Michelle Lesley

Welcome to another “potpourri” edition of The Mailbag, where I give short(er) answers to several questions rather than a long answer to one question.

Or maybe I answered your question already? Check out my article The Mailbag: Top 10 FAQs to see if your question has been answered and to get some helpful resources.

What do we do when a non-Christian (or a “Christian” who really isn’t, or someone from another faith) offers their prayers to you in times of need or trial? My husband recently had surgery, and he got good luck money from a Buddhist, prayer from a Catholic/New Ager (who also told her friends to send “their angels” to him). What should we say or do in these instances?

It is a blessing to have caring people in your life, even if they are pagans. Say a prayer of thanksgiving to God that He has placed them in your path so that you might have an opportunity to demonstrate your care for them by sharing the gospel with them. This is one of the purposes of our suffering – to point to our Savior and sustainer, Jesus.

I’m not familiar with “good luck money” but I’m assuming it’s not just, “Here, I want to help with your medical bills,” but rather has some sort of spiritual significance in Buddhism.

When Mr. Buddhist comes to the hospital to visit, hands you an envelope with cash in it, and says, “This money has been specially blessed by the Dalai Lama to bring you good luck for your surgery,” (or whatever the case may be) you could say, “Thank you so much for your kindness and generosity, Mr. B, but I’m afraid God would not be pleased for me to accept this.”. When Mr. B asks why (or if he doesn’t: “May I explain why?”), it’s a perfect opening to explain that you worship the only true God of the universe and that He will have no other gods before or besides Him… and then you’re off to the races with sharing the gospel.

When the Catholic / New Ager offers to pray for you, just turn the tables, “That’s so kind of you to offer, Cath, but would you mind if I pray for you instead?” And then don’t give her a chance to answer. Just start praying. When you’ve finished, depending on which way the wind is blowing, you could launch right into a gospel presentation, or an immediate change of subject (…amen. It was so good of you to come visit, Cath. How’s your daughter doing? I heard she’s about to graduate high school. What are her plans after graduation?)

Sometimes, doing something unexpected like that knocks people off their game enough that you can kindly and lovingly shift the interaction in a direction that alleviates awkwardness and is more pleasing to God.

My question is about pride. Why are we proud (of our children, our country, our jobs well done, etc.) when pride is a sin? If you are going to tell me there is such a thing as “good pride,” please follow with where good pride came from.

I’ve tried to stop saying I’m proud of my children, by saying other things like, “You make my heart happy,” “I’m so glad you’re my son (or daughter),” etc.

Yes, I’ve asked my husband, my pastor, my previous pastor, a like-minded friend and done my own research- I have not found, nor been given, an answer. Can you please clear this up?

Wow, it sounds like you’ve been studying on this a good bit. That’s great! When we have questions like this, we should always go to our Bibles and, if possible, seek counsel from our husbands and pastors.

Even as Christians, we often misunderstand and mislabel our emotions. There is no such thing as “good pride” because the Bible’s definition of pride is much narrower than all of the things the word “pride” covers in the common vernacular.

If you will look up the words pride and proud in Scripture (particularly in Psalms and Proverbs) and begin reading the verses that contain those words as well as the surrounding context, you’ll start to get a better feel for the way the Bible, rather than the world, defines pride. You’ll see the words “pride” and “proud” mostly paired with, and surrounded by words like “arrogant,” “haughty,” “pompous,” “boasting,” and pride as opposed to humility.

As you’re looking at verses containing the words “pride” and “proud,” you’ll come across the stories of some folks who show us what it means to be prideful, but I can’t think of two better examples than Nebuchadnezzar (see v. 30) and Herod (see 22-23), so be sure to read those.

In the pride of his face the wicked does not seek him; all his thoughts are, “There is no God.”
Psalm 10:4

This is the sin of pride. It is the boastful arrogance – whether expressed outwardly or cherished in the heart – that says, “I did this grand and glorious thing myself. It redounds to my glory. Look at me. Look at ME! I didn’t need God to do this thing, and I don’t need Him now.”

Non-Christians might look at their careers, and maybe even their children that way, but Christians don’t. Christians know that every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father. We know, better than anyone else on the planet, that we are nothing without Him, and that we can do nothing without Him. We can’t even cause our own hearts to beat! The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away.

So when you look at your kid, if you feel pride – the way the Bible describes it – you’d better repent before you end up like Nebuchadnezzar or Herod. But, I’m guessing that’s not what you feel. I’m guessing you feel just like I do when I look at my kids: a white hot, God-given love that would propel you barefoot over hot coals for them, a heart that is bursting with joy, and undying gratitude and humility that the God of the universe would graciously give you – one so undeserving – a child who is pleasing.

That’s not pride. That’s the opposite of pride.

And, yeah, maybe we should lose, “I’m so proud of you!” for “I’m so grateful to God for you!”.

We had a ladies’ fellowship weeks ago. One of our sisters was going to the hospital to have a procedure and our leader asked us to gather to pray and lay hands on her.

I’m ok with praying, but the laying on of the hands triggered in me an awkward feeling since I was part of the charismatic movement many years ago and that was a common practice. However, I also read in the Bible that the LORD and the apostles laid hands on people although maybe the context was different. It may not be an unbiblical practice and I’m just being too reactive to it. Do you have any thoughts or comments on that?

I can certainly understand why that triggered you, considering your background.

In charismatic / NAR circles the laying on of hands is typically to bestow some sort of supernatural “impartation” – of healing, imbuing someone with a “prophetic mantle,” or “gift of the Spirit,” conferring a position of leadership onto someone, using a person as a touch point to receive a “word of knowledge” about her, etc. They got this (and twisted it) from the passages of Scripture that mention Jesus and others laying their hands on people to heal, confer the Holy Spirit, and so on.

Naturally, if the Lord has saved you out of that hot mess of heresy, you don’t want to see anything remotely like it in your new, doctrinally sound church.

In doctrinally sound churches, the laying on of hands and praying for someone was, at one time, usually reserved for ordination-type ceremonies. One of the practices in the many deacon ordinations I’ve attended has been for the pastor to call upon all the ordained men attending the service to lay hands upon the deacon candidate and pray for him (not confer anything upon him). Sometimes this will be a small group of men who will surround him, lay hands on him, and pray together. I’ve also been to ordination services where there was a line of ordained men wrapped around the perimeter of the sanctuary, and each one took his turn laying hands on, and praying individually, for each deacon candidate. It’s very sobering and very special.

I think this practice, combined with the spirit of James 5:14, is how, in the doctrinally sound church, we sort of morphed into small groups laying hands on the sick or others as we pray for them. In that context, there’s certainly nothing biblically wrong with it. I’ve taken part in praying for people this way, and I’ve been prayed for this way, too. (Honestly, it usually turns into more of a group hug and you have to be careful not to smother the person being prayed for!).

Laying hands on someone isn’t necessary and it doesn’t make your prayers any more efficacious. It just creates an atmosphere of unity in prayer and makes the person being prayed for feel that she’s surrounded by brothers and sisters who love her and are interceding for her (because she is, quite literally). If you’re uncomfortable participating, you don’t have to, but as you grow in Christ and begin growing out of those old triggers, you may change your mind one day.

Mailbag, Southern Baptist/SBC

The Mailbag: Where can I get info on #SBC23?

May 2, 2023May 16, 2023 Michelle Lesley

Will you be attending the Southern Baptist Convention in New Orleans this year? I am interested in any news or updates on the Convention. Do you know where I can get reliable information?

The 2023 annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention will be held June 13-14 at the Morial Convention Center in New Orleans, Louisiana. The actual business and voting will take place Tuesday, the 13th and Wednesday, the 14th. Ancillary events and activities will take place Saturday June 10 – Wednesday, June 14th. (See the Convention website for more details.)

Yes, Lord willing, I am planning to attend, at least the 13th and 14th. I will probably do some pop up “meet and greets” at the convention center for anyone who would like to stop by and say hello. Those were a lot of fun last year, and meeting so many of you was one of the best things about the ’22 Convention. The timing and location of these will be impromptu, and I will announce them only on Twitter, so be sure to follow me to catch those announcements.

Over the past couple of years, I have written detailed articles (like this one, this one, and this one) in anticipation of the annual meeting to keep my readers informed on the issues and events, and to encourage them to vote biblically. Many thanks to those who have contacted me this year to ask about a similar article for 2023, and have kindly mentioned how helpful previous years’ articles were. For a variety of reasons, I’ve decided against writing an article about this year’s Convention. Other than this one, that is. 🙂

I would recommend following these ministries, organizations, and accounts on Twitter (or wherever you can) for reliable information and a biblical perspective (except Baptist Press) about the latest happenings in the SBC:

Founders Ministries (website)
Tom Ascol
Tom Buck
G3 Ministries (website)
Conservative Baptist Network (website)
Baptist Press (website) (they’re slanted progressive, so you’ll have to filter it through a biblical lens, but they do at least put most of the major happenings out there)
SBC Underground (website)
Servants and Heralds (website)

I would strongly suggest following these accounts on Twitter rather than another platform because a lot of information comes out in interpersonal conversations rather than just in links to blog posts and such.

One item of business that is unfolding is a proposed amendment to the SBC constitution (not the BFM) that would exclude churches with women “pastors” from being in friendly cooperation with the SBC. This includes women who bear the title of pastor, even if they’re not functioning as pastors (e.g. “Women’s Pastor” “Children’s Pastor”) as well as women who are functioning as pastors even if they don’t bear the title of pastor (e.g. “Worship Leader” “Director of Education and Discipleship”). Churches with women in these positions or bearing these titles would not be allowed to “join” the SBC. If such a church is already a “member” of the SBC, it would be disfellowshipped (excommunicated) from the SBC.

At the moment, it has not been determined whether or not messengers will get to vote on this amendment. There is a letter of support pastors can sign, and you can get much more information at the SBC Amendment website.

The spotlight issue is going to be Rick Warren’s challenge of the Executive Committee’s decision to disfellowship (cut ties with) the “church” he “pastored” for over forty years – Saddleback, in Lake Forest, California. Saddleback currently has husband and wife “co-pastors” at the helm (appointed by Rick Warren prior to his retirement).

Earlier this year, the Executive Committee announced that Saddleback had been disfellowshipped for this reason, causing quite the stir among Southern Baptists in the know. Less than a year ago at the 2022 Convention, the head of the Credentials Committee, which is responsible for assessing whether or not a church seems to be in friendly cooperation with the SBC, proposed that messengers approve a year long study committee so the CC could figure out what a pastor is.

But apparently, they managed to figure it out without the study committee and quickly determined that Saddleback is, indeed, not closely enough aligned with the Baptist Faith and Message (the SBC’s statement of faith) to remain in fellowship with the SBC.

Conspicuously quickly, that is. Some have suggested that this was a strategic move designed to maneuver Rick Warren (or in collusion with him) into challenging the disfellowshipping. If he can successfully convince the messengers (voting attendees) to vote to overturn the decision (and judging from the standing ovation they gave him after his 6 minute, out of order, ode to himself last year, that’s very likely), the four other churches that were disfellowshipped at the same time as Saddleback can push to have their decisions overturned. And, assuming they’re successful, how much time and energy do you think the CC is going to put into any future complaints about other churches with women pastors? (None. That’s how much.) Not long after that, they’ll amend the BFM and remove the part above about women being pastors.

And that’s how the approval of women pastors is going to end up codified into SBC policy. It’s not a stretch. I think the first time I said that the SBC would affirm women “pastors” within five years was last year. Barring a certifiable miracle, I still believe that.

Now, just because that’s going to be the spotlight issue doesn’t mean that’s all you have to worry about. The whole abuse issue (Guidepost, the ARITF, etc.) is going to be another fairly major issue as well. Plus, there are going to be people who are counting on messengers being so distracted by Warrengate and the abuse advocacy grifters that they won’t be paying attention to any other issues. Keep your eyes and ears open, and pay attention. I’d bet my bottom dollar somebody’s going to try to pull a fast one with some sort of unbiblical issue while everybody’s out of the room.

So, if you haven’t already, talk to your pastor about becoming a messenger, get to New Orleans in June and…

Read or listen carefully to anything that’s up for a vote, make sure you understand it correctly, and vote according to Scripture.
Be in the room for every vote.
Vote against anything Rick Warren / Saddleback proposes
Vote for Mike Stone for president. (God bless him, he is not only godly but courageous and tenacious to boot.)
Support the constitutional amendment to disfellowship churches with women pastors (read it carefully before voting – sometimes items like this are re-worded from the original)
Don’t just blindly trust whoever’s at the podium or let them tug at your heartstrings. Listen, engage your brain, and think critically, biblically, and objectively about the issue.

…and prepare yourself to lose, and lose big time. I was prepared to lose every vote last year. And we did. And it still took a spiritual and emotional toll.

And it was worth it. I would do it all over again – which I kinda am, since I’ll be there again this year.

It’s worth it to know that one day I’ll stand before the Lord and say (speaking only for myself and my own conscience) about this moment, “Lord, by Your grace and strength, I didn’t give up. I did my best with what You gave me in order to honor and glorify You.”.

Won’t you join me in June in New Orleans?

Mailbag, Marriage

The Mailbag: What is submission?

April 25, 2023October 6, 2025 Michelle Lesley

How is biblical submission defined, with specifics?

It’s a great question that a lot of women wonder about. “Just give me a list of all of the things I need to do to be ‘doing submission,’ and I’ll do them!” Unfortunately, that’s not how this, and so many other biblical concepts, works.

“Just give me a list of all of the things I need to do to be ‘doing submission,’ and I’ll do them!” Unfortunately, that’s not how this, and so many other biblical concepts, works.
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Asking “How is biblical submission defined, ‘with specifics’?” is kind of like asking someone to define “modesty” or “parenting” with specifics. A lot of those “specifics” are situation dependent and vary from family to family or person to person.

For example, you can’t make a law for Christians that a woman’s skirt must be a certain length, because the length of women’s legs vary, and the same length requirement will be modest on one woman and immodest on another. It’s the same idea with submission. It’s going to vary from marriage to marriage.

In a godly marriage¹, a husband and wife come together and discuss how they’re going to handle various issues, chores, responsibilities, etc. If there’s agreement, great! But that’s not really submission because both spouses are getting what they want.

If there’s agreement, great! But that’s not really submission because both spouses are getting what they want.
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When there’s an area of disagreement, both spouses offer their input. If, after discussing it, the husband comes to the conclusion that he was wrong or that it would work just as well to do things the wife’s way, then he leads the family to do things the way she has suggested.

But if, after hearing his wife out, he concludes that his way is the wisest way to do things, that’s where submission comes in. The husband is responsible before God for how he’s leading in this situation. The wife is responsible before God for maintaining a posture of heart that says, “I may think he’s wrong, but I’m going to trust God in this situation, and obey Him by putting my will aside and graciously doing things my husband’s way.” That is biblical submission whatever the specific circumstances may be.

I may think he’s wrong, but I’m going to trust *God* in this situation, and obey *Him* by putting my will aside and graciously doing things my husband’s way.
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Obviously, that’s an ideal situation between a godly husband and a godly wife, but the same applies to a godly wife with an unsaved or not so godly husband. First Peter 3:1-6 and 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 are crystal clear that a wife’s godly submission can be instrumental in his salvation or sanctification.

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
2 Peter 3:1-2, 1 Corinthians 7:16

“But what if his way turns out to be the wrong way?” Sometimes you’re going to submit to your husband and he’s going to end up being wrong. He’s going to have to answer to God for that. You’re going to have to answer to God for whether or not you obeyed Him and submitted to your husband.

We don’t obey God only when we think that doing so will yield the results we want. We obey God’s commands every time, we leave the results up to Him, and we trust Him to carry us through and provide for us regardless of what happens. That’s called faith.

We don’t obey God *only* when we think that doing so will yield the results we want.
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¹If your knee jerk reaction to the word “submission” is to immediately reject this biblical command outright because there are men who abuse their wives (whether or not your husband is one of them), your attitude is not in line with Scripture. Abuse is a separate situation with a separate, biblical way of handling it that has nothing to do with biblical submission. Please note that this article is to be understood in the context of a godly (by definition, not abusive) marriage.