Author: Michelle Lesley

Servant of Christ, wife, mother, churchwoman, women's discipleship blogger, podcaster, and speaker.
Southern Baptist/SBC

Interview with Anticipated SBC Presidential Nominee: Mike Stone

Michelle Lesley
Mike Stone, Michelle Lesley

Earlier this week, I had the opportunity to attend an event sponsored by the Louisiana chapter of the Conservative Baptist Network featuring Pastor Mike Stone, anticipated 2021 nominee for president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

The next morning, Pastor Mike graciously made the time to sit for a brief interview with me, which I’m making available to you today for informational purposes, especially if you’re Southern Baptist.

I’m sure there are some theological topics on which Pastor Mike and I don’t see eye to eye, so this isn’t meant to be an endorsement of anything that conflicts with my theology as outlined in my Welcome and Statement of Faith tabs, nor is the fact that Pastor Mike is appearing on my blog an endorsement of any of my theology that conflicts with his positions. This interview was simply a service both of us are providing to you so that you may know where Pastor Mike stands on the issues I asked him about.

That being said, as a brother and sister in Christ who share a passion for the sufficiency of Scripture, a disdain for so-called “soft-complementarianism,” and a desire to see the Southern Baptist Convention straighten up and fly right, I feel certain we have far more in common than not. I found Pastor Mike to be a warm and caring brother, and I commend him for taking a firm, biblical stand on some issues which, sad to say, will not earn him any brownie points in certain sectors of the SBC. That takes guts, and I respect that. I thoroughly enjoyed our chat.

Listen in on the audio player above or on my YouTube channel (audio only).

I know some of y’all like transcripts when I post audio. I was not able to transcribe Pastor Mike’s portion of interview, but you may read my questions – as well as a post-interview addendum to Pastor Mike’s answer to question #2 – here.

Many thanks to Pastor Mike Stone, the Conservative Baptist Network, the Louisiana chapter of the Conservative Baptist Network, CBN Steering Council member, Pastor Lewis Richerson, and Benjamin Lesley- producer, for making this interview possible.

Speaking Engagements

Y’all Come! – Speaking Engagement Updates

Michelle Lesley

Need an opportunity to get together with other godly women for fellowship and good teaching? I’d love for you to come to one of my conferences!

If you haven’t checked out the calendar of events on my Speaking Engagements page (in the blue menu bar at the top of this page), here’s an update. I hope you’ll be able to attend one of these – I’d love to see you! I’ll be posting more about each of these as the dates get nearer, and I hope to add several more!

2021 Calendar:

June 4-5- Cruciform Conference, Indianapolis, Indiana. Breakout sessions for women. This one is co–ed (except for my breakout sessions), so bring your husbands, ladies!

July 12-16- Reverence in Radical Times women’s conference, online. (This is the 2021 iteration of the 2020 OHCW online conference.) Join me, Martha Peace, Susan Heck, Erin Coates, Shelbi and Kimberly from the Women’s Hope podcast, Marci from Thankful Homemaker, and more, as we examine Titus 2:3-5. (More details to come.)

July 31- Women’s Conference, Providence Baptist Church in Opelika, Alabama. (This conference is open to women in the surrounding areas, but you must contact the church directly for details.)

September 11- Women’s Conference, Maranatha Baptist Church in Nashville, Arkansas. (This conference is open to women in the surrounding areas, but you must contact the church directly for details.)

September 25-26 (Sat./Sun.)- Women’s Conference, Ekalaka Bible Church in Ekalaka, Montana. (This conference is open to women in the surrounding areas, but you must contact the church directly for details.)

October 22-23- Women’s Conference, Pop-Up Church in Faber, Virginia. (This conference will be open to women in the surrounding areas, but you must contact the church directly for details.)

Newly added!

November 5-6- Women’s Conference, New Prospect Baptist Church in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee. (This conference is open to women in the surrounding areas, but you must contact the church directly for details.)

Couldn’t find a conference near you? Stay tuned. I’ve still got a few events pending that I’ll announce as soon as we can get the details ironed out.

Or, if you’re unable to attend one of the events above, host your own! I’d love to come speak to the ladies of your church or Christian organization. I have a few spots left on my 2021 calendar, and now is a great time to start planning for 2022 conference dates.

Need a little help with the details? Check out the rest of the information on my Speaking Engagements page, including my article, Women’s Events on a Shoestring Budget (Plus- Tips for Hosting an Event!).

I also have a speaking engagement option that makes hosting an event easier and less expensive: speaking engagement packages. Choose from my most popular biblical topics and the most common conference formats, and we’ll send you the set speaking fee for that conference. (Of course, if you have another topic you’d like me to speak on or a format that’s unique to your event, that option is still available.)

I hope to see you soon at an event near you!

Sermon on the Mount Bible Study

The Sermon on the Mount ~ Lesson 8

Michelle Lesley

Previous Lessons: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,

Matthew 5:38-48

Questions to Consider

1. Briefly review the “middle parts” (ex: merciful, poor in spirit) of the Beatitudes, the “salt and light” passage, and the “heart of the law” passage in Matthew 5:1-12, 13-16, 14-20. Now read 38-48 in light of those passages.

Summarize 38-48 in your own words. Is Jesus talking about personal offenses in this passage or crimes which require the governing authorities to mete out justice? In other words, if someone commits a murder, are the police to “turn the other cheek”? Is that what Jesus is saying here?

2. In the Beatitudes, Jesus lists the traits that define Christian character. In much of the rest of the Sermon on the Mount He fleshes out what many of these character traits look like when walked out in “real life”. Which of the traits (the “middle parts” – there could be several) listed in the Beatitudes is Jesus expanding on in 38-48? Especially note verse 45.

(Helpful hint: If you want to get those “middle parts” into your brain so you don’t have to keep flipping back to verses 1-12, here’s a helpful memory aid I discovered last week as I was preparing this lesson – there are 4 “P’s”: poor in spirit, pure in heart, peacemaker, persecuted, 3 “M’s”: mourn, meek, merciful, and 2 “R’s”: (hunger and thirst for) righteousness, reviled. You won’t have them all in order, and you won’t have the entirety of each verse, but those middle parts will stick.)

How does retaliation bland your saltiness? (13-16) How can acting in a loving way toward those who mistreat you make you saltier and brighter?

3. Review from our previous lessons (links above) the idea that the Sermon on the Mount is to the New Testament / new covenant what the Ten Commandments were to the Old Testament / old covenant.

Though retaliation and loving our enemies is not specifically mentioned in the Ten Commandments (it is dealt with elsewhere in the law), which of the Ten Commandments could be connected to instances of retaliating, or refusing to retaliate, against someone who has hurt you? For example: How could murdering or bearing false witness against someone be forms of retaliation? How could refusing to retaliate against a parent who has hurt you be a form of honoring your parent?

Are the Old Testament eye for an eye passages advocating taking personal vengeance on someone who has wronged you, or are they describing the just legal punishment for a criminal offense to be meted out by the governing authorities?

How do Jesus’ phrases “You have heard it said…but I say to you…” verbally transition the people from their focus on outward obedience to the letter of the law to zeroing in on the attitude of their hearts and the spirit of the law? Explain how loving your enemies is the heart of the law behind the Commandments you cited as answers in the paragraph above.

4. Review: Examine again the “You have heard it said…but I say to you…” proclamation. Who had the people heard it (the law) said by? Who taught them the law? How does Jesus saying, “But I say to you…” establish Jesus’ supremacy over the Pharisees, scribes, priests, etc. Imagine you’re one of these Jewish leaders and you’re hearing Jesus say this. What might your initial reaction be?

Recalling our Sermon on the Mount / Ten Commandments motif, how might Jesus’ “You have heard it said…but I say to you…” proclamation have evoked images of Moses as lawgiver, and signaled to the Jewish leaders and people that the better Moses was here?

5. When it comes to responding to someone who has wronged you, is restraining yourself from retaliating enough – a complete response – according to 38-42? How is controlling yourself and restraining yourself from retaliating, but instead doing good (38-42) demonstrating love for that person (43-48)? Compare Jesus’ “preaching” in this passage about retaliation and loving our enemies to His “practice” in these passages. How did he set the perfect example for us of loving our enemies? How does God demonstrate “common grace” love to His enemies in 45b? Why does Jesus instruct us to love our enemies? How does going above and beyond the attitudes and actions of the tax collectors and Gentiles (46,47) demonstrate that we are Christians or “sons of our Father who is in Heaven” (45)?

6. Think of the times when you’ve shared the gospel with someone. Have you ever tried to explain to someone that she is a sinner only to hear her say, “Well nobody’s perfect, but I’m better that that guy over there!” or “Maybe I’m not perfect, but I’ve never murdered anybody.”? How does verse 48 (and 46-47) help us understand that God – not other fallen, sinful people – is the perfect standard we should measure ourselves against? Will we ever measure up to His perfection? How does this help us see why we need Jesus – the perfect sacrifice for our sin – who made us perfect?

Homework

A woman who is reading this passage through the lens of an abusive marriage may wonder, “Does this passage mean I have to allow myself to be abused?”. No, it doesn’t mean that at all. This is an occasion when it’s really helpful to understand the context and culture behind the passage.

If you did the homework in lesson 6 (link above) and read my article The Mailbag: Is Lust a Sin for Women, Too?, you’ll recall the unspoken understanding of the people hearing Jesus preach the Sermon on the Mount that He was addressing the men, and any women and children who were there were basically just along for the ride. Jesus isn’t talking in this passage about a woman being abused by a man. Because He’s understood to be addressing the men, He’s also understood to be talking about an altercation between two men – equals, more or less. No one would have understood Jesus to mean (nor did He mean) that He was endorsing abuse or saying women had to be punching bags for abusers.

Think about how God designed and built men differently from the way He designed and built women. If Joe slaps both Tom and Mary in the face, who is going to be more likely to turn around and beat Joe to a pulp? Tom is – especially if he’s the same size or bigger than Joe is. Men are much more prone to, “You hit me, I kill you back.” (Any mom of two or more boys can vouch for the truth of this statement!) How does Jesus’ instruction to Tom to turn the other cheek to Joe flesh out “blessed are the meek,” “the merciful,” and “the peacemakers”? How does it tie in to the earlier passage on anger?

All of that being said, that doesn’t mean this passage only applies to men, and that if Mary slaps you in the face you can scratch her eyes out because you’re both women. Loving our enemies and treating them in a loving way might look a little different for women, but the principle is still the same. Think about an incident in which someone treated you poorly. How did you respond? What role did pride, selfishness, or anger play in your response? Did you refrain from retaliating and do good to that person? Make a plan for how you will respond the next time someone mistreats you. How can you be meek, merciful, and a peacemaker in that situation?

Suggested Memory Verse

Christian women, Parenting

Throwback Tuesday ~ Avoiding the Creepers: Six Ways to Raise a Biblically Strong Woman

Michelle Lesley

Originally published May 15, 2015

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 
2 Timothy 3:1-7

If someone were to ask you, “What kind of person do you want to raise your daughter to be?” how would you answer? Caring? Independent? Loyal? Kind?

I’m betting none of us would answer “weak,” “burdened with sins,” “easily led astray by her passions,” or “unable to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.” Yet in these last days in which we find ourselves, that’s exactly what many good-hearted Christian mothers with nothing but the best of intentions are raising their daughters to be. It’s not that they want their daughters to grow up to be spiritually weak or led astray by sin or unbiblical teaching, it’s just that they lack the skills and tools necessary for properly training their daughters in the Scriptures and godliness.

Maybe you’re one of those moms. You want to train your daughter to be a wise, godly, discerning woman, but you’re not quite sure how. Hey, we all have those areas of our lives that we need a little help with. As an older mom myself, maybe I can lend a hand.

My daughter is almost twenty, and while she’s nowhere near perfect, by the grace of God, she is a godly young lady. Looking back, there are many things my husband and I did wrong as parents. But God, in His mercy, covered our failures and saw all of us through as He taught us through His word how to raise a biblically strong woman.

6 Ways to Raise a Biblically Strong Woman

1. Set an example.

Our daughters learn by watching us. Faithfully study your Bible, pray, attend church, obey God’s word, submit to your husband, repent and ask forgiveness when you sin, and serve others and your church together.

2. Learn, and teach your daughter, good hermeneutics.

Hermeneutics is just a fancy word for rightly handling God’s word. Use a reliable Bible translation. Understand Scripture in its immediate and overall context. What was the author’s intended meaning, his audience, genre, and culture? Point your daughter to Christ as you study God’s word together.

3. Find a doctrinally sound church, join it, and attend faithfully as a family.

Study God’s word and compare everything that’s preached and taught to Scripture (in context). Does your church’s teaching line up? Then be committed to attending every single week, not just when you feel like it or when there’s nothing better to do. Instill in your daughter a love for, and a commitment to, the church.

4. Fight the fluff.

Unfortunately, many of the most popular preachers, teachers, and Christian authors (including women’s Bible study authors) teach and write things that may sound good and make us feel good, but are in direct conflict with Scripture. These are the very people Paul was speaking of in 2 Timothy 3. Teach your daughter to follow only trustworthy teachers whose theology is in line with Scripture.

5. Bring prayer and Scripture into every situation.

She can’t find her favorite doll? Kids picking on her at school? She wants to wear clothes that barely cover her? Discuss what the Bible say about these things. Pray together about them. Lead your daughter into prayer and Scripture as part of daily life, and it will teach her that God is to have authority over every aspect of our lives and that we are to obey Him in all things.

6. Teach her how to share the gospel.

If you’re not sure how to properly present the gospel to someone, learn. You can’t lead your daughter to Christ if you can’t share the gospel with her. If your daughter is already saved, make sure she knows how to share the gospel correctly. The Great Commission was the last instruction Christ gave us before leaving earth, and we are all to be about the business of carrying it out until He returns.

The 2 Timothy passage at the beginning of this article is our commission to guard our households against ungodly ways and people – even those who may falsely call themselves Christians – who might creep in and steal our daughters’ hearts and minds away from Christ. He has charged us to train them in godliness, and we must faithfully answer His call to raise wise, discerning, and biblically strong women of God.

What advice would you offer moms who want to raise
biblically strong women?

This article was originally published at Kaylene Yoder’s Blog.

And for all you boy moms, be sure to check out…

Six Ways to Raise a Godly Man

Mailbag

The Mailbag: Your Article Was Unloving!

Michelle Lesley

This article crosses a line…it’s bashing…mean-hearted…We shouldn’t be looking to twist a knife or bask in “I warned you” glory…so settled in our sense of rightness that we can’t grieve for those who are struggling.

…reading that [we should pray for Beth Moore’s salvation] after all the condescension comes off as more of a southern “bless her heart”.

…this article comes across as sanctimonious with zero grace. It complete [sic] discounts the power of God to transform the most wayward heart….ostracizing and belittling those leaders who fall…I felt a lot of smugness in the article…lack of grace and love…[coming] from a place of superiority…[being] gleeful when sin comes to light…take on the role of judge and executioner…

Michelle: So it’s OK for you to bash me, but it’s not OK for me to “bash” Beth?

I’m not bashing you.

Whenever I post an article about Beth Moore or another false teacher, I invariably get comments like this on social media, the gist of which is that I’m being unloving for saying that she is a false teacher, for rebuking her sin, for recommending that Christian women not receive teaching from her, for my “tone” of using stark language, and so on. (I always find it ironic that the commenter is usually bashing me even as she’s accusing me of “bashing” the false teacher.)

Such was the case last Friday when I posted my article Bye-Bye Beth: What Beth Moore’s Split with the SBC Means. I’ve posted excerpts above from several comments about the article made by one woman – not to single her out, but because her accusations and phraseology typify so well the pushback I often receive from those of the “You’re being unloving” persuasion. There were a few other women who responded in the same vein on the same Facebook post(s), so this lady – who, I must say, was much more polite and articulate in expressing her thoughts than most usually are – was not alone in her viewpoint.

I have not excerpted this lady’s comments in order to take them out of context or misrepresent her, but because her comments were far too many and too lengthy to post in full. Assuming they have not been deleted, If you would like to read her comments (and those of the other dissenting women) in full to make sure I’m presenting an accurate picture of the thrust of their sentiments, I would encourage you to do so here, here, and here. (Please do not address these women any further. They have spoken their minds in full, and they have been addressed sufficiently. There is no need to pile on.)

So to those who would accuse me of being unloving or hateful, who shame me that “Jesus would never talk to people that way,” who think my wording is too harsh, unkind, not gentle enough, etc., here’s my answer…

Whose definition of “loving” are we using here?

Whose definition of “loving” are we using here?

You’re defining “love” as my saying something in a way that you’re comfortable with and doesn’t offend your sensibilities.

That’s not how the Bible defines it. And that’s why Jesus was able to speak to the Pharisees…

…woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces…you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. Woe to you, blind guides!…You blind fools!…You blind men!…full of greed and self-indulgence…you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness…you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness…you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?..on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Matthew 23

…and God was able to speak about His idolatrous people…

And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoring lust. And after she was defiled by them, she turned from them in disgust. When she carried on her whoring so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned in disgust from her sister. Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the whore in the land of Egypt and lusted after her lovers there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses. Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom and pressed your young breasts.”

Ezekiel 23:17-21

…so much more harshly and starkly than I’ve spoken about Beth in this article, and yet He is still the perfect embodiment of love, and the perfect example of love to us.

Using your definition of love, if you’re going to be fair and consistent, if you accuse me of speaking in an unloving way in this article, you have to accuse God of speaking in an unloving way in Ezekiel 23 and Jesus of speaking in an unloving way in Matthew 23.

But the Bible defines love like this:

God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 1 John 4:8b-11

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Because God is love, God alone has the right to define love. And God defines love as the redemption, restoration, and reconciliation of man to Himself. Love isn’t someone making you feel good about yourself or the world or your circumstances. Love isn’t being outwardly “nice”: always being the epitome of sweetness, never confronting anyone, affirming everything, never hurting anyone’s feelings, never saying or doing anything that makes anyone uncomfortable.

Because God is love, God alone has the right to define love. And God defines love as the redemption, restoration, and reconciliation of man to Himself.

While the world looks at a person’s outward, observable behavior and pronounces her loving or unloving depending on how pleasing that behavior is to others, God looks at a person’s heart and pronounces her loving or unloving to the extent that her motives match His.

…the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.

1 Samuel 16:7b

God defines love as cooperating with Him in rescuing the perishing, building up the church, and showcasing His glory. Sometimes that’s going to look like binding up the brokenhearted or healing the untouchable leper, and sometimes that’s going to look clearing the temple or calling false teachers a brood of vipers. While the world would call the former “loving” and the latter “hateful” based on what those behaviors look like, God calls both loving if they spring from a heart motivated to rescue, redeem, restore, and reconcile.

Sometimes biblical love looks like binding up the brokenhearted or healing the untouchable leper, and sometimes it looks like clearing the temple or calling false teachers a brood of vipers.

So, when you say I’m being “unloving” to use stringent language about false teachers (like God, Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles did), and I say you’re wrong, it’s because we’re using two different definitions of love. You’re using a worldly definition of love based on how pleasing my outward behavior was to you. I’m using God’s definition of love that’s based on the motivation of my heart. You cannot tell me I’m not demonstrating biblical love in a situation like this because you don’t know the motivation of my heart. I do. The article in question (like so many others about which I’m accused of being unloving) was motivated by love – God’s definition of love – for

  • Beth – that God would graciously remove the scales from her eyes and save her
  • Beth’s fans – that God would open their eyes to deception they’re believing and lead them to repentance and sound doctrine
  • Discerning Christians – that they might be encouraged not to let their guard down but to keep contending for the faith once for all delivered to saints
  • The church – that it would cleanse out the leaven of false teaching so that Christ might present her to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
  • and the Southern Baptist Convention – that it might forsake the idols of money, power, and celebrity, and return to its first love, Christ.

But it was also motivated by another component of love which the worldly definition of love, being worldly, is completely oblivious to. You see, the world’s definition of love only concerns itself with the “horizontal” love between one human being and another. But God’s definition of love finds its origin in Himself. He is the foundation and the culmination of love. He is both the starting gun and the finish line in the race of love. Where there is no vertical love of God, there is no horizontal love between people. There may be friendship, attraction, affection, attachment, and emotion, but there is no true love.

God’s definition of love finds its origin in *Himself*. Where there is no vertical love of God, there is no horizontal love between people. So any biblical -rather than worldly- definition of love must start and finish with love for God.

And so any biblical – rather than worldly – definition of love must start and finish with love for God. Only a heart that loves Him because He first loved me can extend that same redemptive, restorative love to others.

And though I have never, and will never, this side of Glory, love Him as completely and perfectly as I should – as I want to – those articles that offend your sensibilities, that you feel justified in berating me about because they don’t meet your standards, those articles are rooted in and motivated by love for the Christ whom I serve. I would not continue to do what I do and take the abuse I take for it if I did not love Him.

I’ve heard this whole “tone police” perspective a million times. I’ve prayed about it. I’ve considered it. I’ve weighed the motivations of my heart. And in cases in which I know before the Lord that my motives have truly been unloving, I’ve repented. But the astronomically overwhelming majority of accusations I receive are not from people concerned with the biblical definition of love, but from people using a worldly definition of love whose personal sensibilities have been offended. People who wish to correct me from the authority and standard of their feelings, not from the authority and standard of God’s Word.

And as I’ve prayed, and studied, and weighed, and considered all of these things, the conclusion the Lord has graciously led me to is that there’s no way I will ever please every single one of the thousands of people who hear me. Just like Jesus’ words didn’t please all the people who heard Him, or John the Baptist’s words, or Peter’s, or Paul’s, or Noah’s, or Ezekiel’s, or Jeremiah’s, or… (you know, I’m starting to think I’m in good company!)

So rather than trying to please man, I’m going to strive to please God. If my conscience is clear before Him, that’s all that matters.

The fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is safe. Proverbs 29:25

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10

Additional Resources:

Discernment: What’s Love Got to Do with It?

Sacrificing Truth on the Altar of Tone

Pull over – it’s the Tone Police at A Word Fitly Spoken

If you have a question about: a Bible passage, an aspect of theology, a current issue in Christianity, or how to biblically handle a family, life, or church situation, comment below (I’ll hold all questions in queue {unpublished} for a future edition of The Mailbag) or send me an e-mail or private message. If your question is chosen for publication, your anonymity will be protected.